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FL vs Ableton
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Audiosonic
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
108
Posted : Jul 16, 2011 10:53:06
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I started out with Cakewalk, later on Cakewalk Audio Pro (this was all before the invention of VSTs and realtime synthesis)
Later on, i changed to FL because i started producing some other genres too.. but when i create 4beat music, i often find myself restrained by the pattern sequencing of FL. I really miss the serial/chronologic sequencing of the larger DAW softwares.
I can see inhere that Ableton is VERY popular, but from what i read before, it's mostly for DJ stuff, construction kits stretching loops to fit, and live looping..... i feel i am very wrong now, and therefore i hope that someone inhere could shed some light on this for me before i make a choice:
Can I work with Ableton just like i'm used to with larger DAWs like Sonar and Cubase?
And yes  I know that FL allows this workflow somewhat, but it's very clumsy in this regard i think. That is why i am considering a switch
.. but what do you think? Which do you prefer? and why?
Cheers |
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psyraal
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
77
Posts :
768
Posted : Jul 16, 2011 14:29
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Audiosonic
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
108
Posted : Jul 16, 2011 15:02
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Hi Ethik
Not being rude at all... and if you were, i'd probably survive still  What i hoped for is exactly some discussion/debate, so thanks for chipping in
I know this might seem weird, but i really like FL for hiphop beats and plain elektro, loopbased stuff. It's so easy to create some patterns and make them play together, and i really like FL for this.
But for psytrance, which is more 'program music' like classical music is, then i often find myself wanting some lead to have little variations - in FL i have to create a pattern for every variation, and if i do this for a few tracks i end up with patterns all over
What i like is to be able to copy the lead piece a few times in the same track, and then just adjust the respective lead parts, having everything play in the same track.. This is how i work in Sonar and Cubase for example, and the result is much less 'static' than just relying on some patterns.
Also for drums.. if i want some straight stuff, but also some patterns with variations i get the same story as above.
Another hurdle for me is automation - in FL i need to create a 'clip' for the automation, meaning a new pattern.. techno is heavy on the automation, so i also tend to end up with tons of silent clips only holding automation data..... in a traditional DAW i can copy the same bit 4 times, record automation for the full length of the 4 parts with mucl less hassle.
Another beef i try to cope with, is that i really think FL has poor support for external gear, like hw synths and effects... i addressed this to the FL crew a few times, but apparently it's exactly the way they want it. As Gol put it: "FL is about computer sequencing. There are lots of other apps you can use if you want to play with hardware too" (kinda narrowminded maybe, but nevertheless it's their philosophy)
That is why i hope to get back to more traditional sequencing... but instead of going back to one of the old workhorses, i really want to give Ableton a shot, since it seems so popular.... it must have built it's reputation on the basis of a satisfied usergroup.
Cheers |
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psyraal
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
77
Posts :
768
Posted : Jul 16, 2011 15:44
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It's all about orientation and your sense of layer distribution.
If you start a new project on FL you can set the beats per bar to value 8 (or higher if you wish), giving you more room to work on stuff, and this is when the layer distribution comes at hand because in order to make longer/progressive/morphing leads you can have only one block in the playlist for that specific lead.
Of course in FL you have to deal with large amount of blocks and patterns to get a song done but the simpler your project layers are the most you can get out of your tune (this of course doesn't apply to everyone).
As for the automation stuff you don't always have to create new blocks or patterns for it, you can have the automation within that lead/drum pattern/etc sequence (Obviously you have to remember where your automation is).
There are ups and downs, but then again all DAW's have ups and downs.
Also, identifying and coloring patterns/channels gives you a lot more sense of location and believe me it does make your life easier.
I can take some screens for you to look at if you want (and if it helps), but in the end, you have to let go of the fact that it's a DAW that you're working with, if you're focused enough in your tune your mind will "almost magically" drive your hands and eyes to the right knobs.
https://soundcloud.com/neervos |
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Audiosonic
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
108
Posted : Jul 16, 2011 16:00
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I am aware of all these workarounds, and this is what i find clumsy... I can have looong lead patterns, but what with the drums then? i need a 4bar pattern with just 1-2-3-4 kick? thats 16 kicks, which i could have used just a 1bar pattern for.
FL is very clumsy in this regard, also your automation trick: I might record some automation exactly inside some lead clip/pattern.. but what if i need the same lead to appear later in the song with another automation? Then i need to double the lead clip anyways :S
It's all these 'workarounds' that gets to me in general... In a 'traditional' DAW i can have a lead come and go as i please, and i can record all the automation i ever needed, all within just one channel..
Coloring stuff is somewhat a helping hand, but still it's a workaround to cope with it's shortcomings in general
Don't get me wrong, i really love FL, but i think i could use better tools for trance production, and use FL for what it is best at; loopbased music. My trance rarely is loopbased... well, to some extent it is, but to stay evolving and interesting it needs to evolve and stay interesting, and that's where minor variations come in handy. It makes everything feel much less rigid and mechanic (which are feelings that is mandatory in regard of hiphop and elektro, but not as trance-inducing as ever evolving timbres, shifting moods and colors )
Anyway, even if i color up stuff, it won't make it behave well with my hardware, and this is why i'm looking for a new app...
I know how i can easily achieve what i want: Install another DAW software But i see inhere that Ableton is VERY popular, anfd this is why i ask about it. If it is so goddamn cool that it kicks Sonar and Cubase butt, then i will surely be motivated to try it out. If not, then i can go back to one of the classics, or even stay on FL
So, i hope to hear from anyone who used both apps.. which did they prefer, and why? and so on
Cheers |
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psyraal
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
77
Posts :
768
Posted : Jul 16, 2011 16:29
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wizanda
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
24
Posts :
283
Posted : Jul 16, 2011 16:38
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Just tried Cubase Elements, which has a free trial and gave up after the piano roll.
It's not work around, its learning a new working method... FL isn't block orientated any more, instead you make one pattern and then chop it up, within the clips playlist. 
www.wizanda.com www.soundcloud.com/wizanda |
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Audiosonic
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
108
Posted : Jul 16, 2011 17:18
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Quote:
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FL isn't block orientated any more, instead you make one pattern and then chop it up, within the clips playlist.
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Well, kinda.. it all is well until i need to make some variation. Then i need to 'make unique' the clip anyways, and a new pattern emerges.
It's not that i don't like FL, i used it every day for many many years. I know about all this, and i feel a little sorry because i sense that other FL users interpret this thread as a bash.. it isn't i love FL very much, but i really hoped to hear from users who dealt with both apps.. their pros and cons, and what they eventually settled on in the end
Another thing about FL is that it's very easy to test out my homemade VSTs, which is a convenience that i'd be very sorry to miss.. but i still must admit that proper support for hardware is top priority for me :S
Cheers |
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kabbalisticvillage
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
231
Posts :
611
Posted : Jul 16, 2011 23:03
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Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : Jul 17, 2011 00:21
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Suloo
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
87
Posts :
2822
Posted : Jul 17, 2011 08:07
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Quote:
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On 2011-07-17 00:21, Upavas wrote:
To me it isn't about what works better, it is about what works better for ME. Play with both daws, then choose the one you like best...
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+1..you can demo almost all major DAWs even Cubase 6 ...so check em out...live is a serious DAW with the litle lag of no proper Audio Editing base...you might need to fullfill this task with another Audacy(i think it was called) ..wich is then integrated into live...so you will have full range of possibilities with live..
Usually in the end..most people switch to live for the actual performance...so why not start with it from the first place.. 
I enjoy the software but still am into cubase/nuendo for production..
lots of people do great music with FL ...so check it out as well..up to you in the end!
good luck!
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Audiosonic
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
108
Posted : Jul 17, 2011 14:06
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Hmmm, i consider myself pretty confident with FL, since i've used it for roughly 1000 years It's like ppl answers without having read the full thread?! I design my own VST instruments and effects... i'm no noob, and i sure know my way around this music business.
And ofcourse it is MY choice which DAW i will use, so i was more hoping to hear if ppl used Ableton with their hardware synths? if it is hassle free? How well it handles SYSEX dumps and receives? If they regret the shift from FL? Whatever?
I know what works for ME, so that's why i asked for other ppl's opinion I wasn't looking for a pat on the back, encouraging me to take on a scary piece of software like a DAW
I can easily make up my own mind, but i can still find other ppl's input and feedback interesting, right? |
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psyraal
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
77
Posts :
768
Posted : Jul 17, 2011 14:10
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You will get answers from ppl who use FL and ppl who use Ableton. And you have to decide for yourself if you work better with FL or Ableton, you have time (i guess) so try them both out.
https://soundcloud.com/neervos |
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Audiosonic
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
108
Posted : Jul 18, 2011 11:28
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Quote:
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On 2011-07-17 14:10, Ethik Mantis wrote:
...and ppl who use Ableton.
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Yea i'm really looking forward to this.... but i may have misunderstood this whole deal. Since there are threads in these forums addressing Ableton use specifically, and while these threads often goes as far as 8-9 pages of posts, then i thought 'Hmm, Ableton sure is popular'.... but not a single Ableton user has chipped in with answers to my stupid questions yet only FL users.
Well, someone atleast mentioned that Ableton is a fullfledged DAW with all it takes, so i guess i'll just dive in and see how it rolls, how it works patterns/sequences, if it behaves with hardware and so on, and so on... it's just a lot of sour time used on something that i imagined thousands of Ableton users dealing with every day, and thats why i had the idea of just asking them, so i wouldn't have to 'invent the wheel' once more
But thanks for the input in this thread anyways... if not learning about Ableton, i sure did learn some other things |
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mudpeople
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
113
Posts :
1785
Posted : Jul 18, 2011 13:53
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I use Ableton for dj mixing and, uh, live  But my main axe is Renoise.
I tell everyone to try everything they can get their hands on; you never know til you try which one is best suited for your work, and its art, after all, so its almost impossible for another's 'perfect medium' to be EXACTLY the same for you too.
Also I tell everyone; Live 8 is great for producing, but I recommend, if youre using it for live or djing, try 7, it uses less CPU (and has a logical, senseful, not-on-crack warp system sorry, I was one of the angry ones at 8's warp), for my purposes 7 does all I need it to. But, tis a different story if youre producing with it. The grouping feature is one of thet thigns I miss about 8...
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