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First octave sine wave replacement for kicks: Is it worth it and why
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Triplex
Triplex
Started Topics :
22
Posts :
134
Posted : Jun 16, 2004 01:39
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Congratulations for your post! It is very late now and I have to go to sleep, but I think that your post just gave me at least 3 hours of experimenting with soundforge tomorow morning :)
Answering some of your questions :
I high pass my kicks at 40hz. Together with the bass.
I sample my kick and bass for extra control and "rapidness". Of it is not very wise to play the bass in different notes then but anyway.
I tend to add some kind of randomness in the waveshape of my kick. I used to use perfect sine wave but I am sure that it is not wise. Sometimes I might start from anything and low pass it and pitch-shift it -36 and get a something-like-sine period and copy paste it 100 times. Then I work on this. Also I will add some kind of filtered distortion to the snap (high freequency content) of my kick.
On my final mix I like my kick at -3 and my bass at -5 or -6. I know that db is not everything and that adding harmonics to a sound can make it sound louder, but getting those db values is what I usually do.
Sometimes I will make an ultra sub kick sound and zoom on its very beggining and draw with the mouse a very sharp snap. Playing this will not sound good but after low passing it at lets say 2000hz it will be ok. A slight pitch bend will improve things.
thats it for now I cant think of anything useful.
bye!
  http://triplex.trance.net |
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ZilDoggo
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
663
Posted : Jun 16, 2004 02:17
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collin,
i'm all the way with you with the touching thingie.,
for me too it's a fast way of finding dynamics errors because in my studio i have a very bad sub situation.,
so it kindof gives me a feel of how much the realy low end is contributing to the total mix,.
if i only feel clear ultra low stuff then i know there is somethin wrong.,
if it feels even and a smooth vibration with a more complex movement as opposed to , say , a clear sine then i know it's reasonably ok dynamics wise., 
but this is a bit style specific i guess.,
i prolly wouldn't mind that low end if i made hip-hop
i dont seem to vafour the spectrogram as a tool., maybe i should,.
about the techiques by br0d,
i've propably used them all and more.,
with me it all depends on the situation and mood and stuff.,
i mostly do what i think is good to do., not realy working towards a finish.,
so replacing the low of a kick is something i have done before but not nessesarily do again.,
rolling off the low i do almost always but these days i use shelving eq for it.,
but i do this because i KNOW i have something unwanted in there that is munching the bandwidht away., so it's there for a reason and not because 'that's how you do it'
why not using a triangle for kick?
it gives a cerain sound that i'm not after.,
i'm sure that any conflicts in the high can be resolved somehow so that is not the problem.,
also, a sine transfers energy much more efficiently so it's good to make everything vibrate .., triangle would have a harder time doing this.,
i usually tune bass and kick .,., mostly deciding on the general pitch of the track first and then tuning bass and kick to that.,
i avoid things like unision like the plague for the low end because the interference can kill the energy.,
but if you isolate the mid/high from the bass then you can process it freely., this gives some nice options.,
chords and stuff are based on the fact that the notes have a 'nice' mathematical relation.,
so, the easiest chord is an octave.,
then the frequency will be exactly 2x higher.,
then a fifth.,
that's 1.5x higher or 3/2 of the base frequency.,
notice that the number is 'nice'., it doesnt involve a lot of numbers.,
this sounds 'harmonic' to our brains.,
here is a list of common harmonics in music
you see the interval name, the ratio to the ground note and the largest number involved in the ratio,.
this last bit is where you can see that the larger the numbers involved the less harmonic the chord (or change in tone or whatever) sounds..
unison 1:1 1
octave 2:1 2
fifth 3:2 3
fourth 4:3 = 256:192 4
major third 5:4 5
major sixth 5:3 5
minor third 6:5 6
minor sixth 8:5 8
whole tone 9:8 = 288:256 9
semi-tone 256:243 256
in fact go read http://www.webspace4me.net/~blhill/pages.aux/meta/nichomachus.html
that's where i found this table.,
anyway, i accidentally hit 'submit' so i'm keeping it this way cause i hate editing in this small screeen.,
greets,
aka., |
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br0d
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
355
Posted : Jun 16, 2004 09:03
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On 2004-06-16 00:36, Colin OOOD wrote:
I touch the cone to give me another perspective on the relative balance of kick and bass, and as a way of making sure there isn't too much ultra-low sub. For me, PERSONALLY, IMO, etc, etc, I feel the kick drum should be the most promient element of a trance track, and in the absence of a sub-bass unit or 15K PA system in my bedroom, I like to use as many methods as I can to make sure this is the case. Spectrum analysis, the meters on my mixer, touching the cones and, of course, listening through as many speakers as I can are all part of this.
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Weird. I tend to strap a REQ2 LPF set to 300Hz (or 100Hz) ascross the mains and I sometimes judge the bass by feeling the cabinet. A LPF across the mains is very telltale for bass, especially if used together with some great reference tracks loaded into the sequencer for A/B comparison. There's not a whole lot of distraction in this scenario. And yeah, too much first octave bass will thoroughly destroy a mix, and it will sound even worse on a PA than in a studio. Far better to have too little. Then you can call your track "classic style" 
I actually have a 4K watt PA system in my studio, but damn, far too annoying to turn on, especially when the mix is not yet good. |
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Kitnam
Mantik
Started Topics :
110
Posts :
1151
Posted : Jun 16, 2004 14:08
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Before we start to talk about generating a KICK we should find out what we expect from a KICK and what our targets are.
For just a few weeks i have made an important experience:
>> There is no need to make the KICK fat and powerfull <<
Before i got "enlightened" in that way, i had used to gerenate KICKS with a very large complexity and tricky editing-procession. I expected from a KICK:
- strong sub-pointer of the 4/4-beat
- balance to the bass
- heart of track-main-structure and overall "sub-feeling" of the track.
- no weak slobber-KICK
The amount was often a very nice powerfull KICK which give the track the last perfection. There is no point to challenge within, at the first view.
But isnt the "feeling" of an element (in this case our element is the KICK) always contingent on the other track-elements which play together with it?
So, listen to some tracks of "The Delta" or "Midimiliz" for example (The following rules consider on fullon-tracks and any other style , too. I have tested it). This guys use KICKS which are very inconventional, usually I would collect them out, if I search a nice KICK for my song.
This KICKS do not fit with everyone of my expection-points I explained on top. If you would play such a KICK solo, It would sound like a droping old banana, not like a cool and perfect KICK. But playing it together with the rest of the song, it will become a very FAT one!
How is that possible?
This guys know how to route their KICK trough the mixer in combination with the other song-elements, correctly. Its like old eastern martial-arts-lore: You will not need to put new strengh into the cycle, if you can reroute and deflect the strengh which is allready there.
What means that?
<< Use compression, chaining and gating. This is nearly all you need. >>
I close my post here with this short information. You have to find out the details by yourself, and this will be no problem for you If you have keeped reading my useless blowen-up-posting until this sentence.
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br0d
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
355
Posted : Jun 16, 2004 16:25
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Hey that wasn't useless! You made a good point that people do not often realize--sometimes the kick just keeps time, and it's power actually comes from other layers. Since the kick is the most prominent element of dance music, it is the part people most often hear with bias. It seems larger than it is and people tend to exaggerate it. |
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Fugga
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
203
Posted : Oct 11, 2005 19:50
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brod.... thats some serious kick thought...ouch. |
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sonik_akb
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
221
Posted : Oct 14, 2005 23:36
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On 2004-06-12 09:48, br0d wrote:
Ok, about time I started one.
Do you group your bass and kick together, and then process them mutually with a dynamics processor? If so, which kind? Is compression appropriate, or is a read-ahead limiter like L1 or L2 more transparent because of it's ARC control? Is there really any benefit to using a fixed release on grouped low end?
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I usually put my bass and kick on separated tracks and each of them has its own effects chain. Bass effect-chain: EQ (if necessary or for creative use), compression (side-chain input: kick), and MaxxBass. Kick: EQ (again, if necessary...) and compression. If a lot of kick samples are used - with a broad range of frequency, including high frequencies - multiband-compression may be more useful than conventional compression. I usually get my kick from samples CD and records and put them into layers with appropriate handling (I don't make psy tracks, so it's easier for me). I don't use kick from synths, but I know my Supernova 2 makes awesome psy-kicks and MW XT is a monster too (mainly for electro). Anyway, if kicks from synths are used, the best thing to do is record them and use them like samples. It's more reliable, IMO.
Back to the kick (and drums elements)... I use each percussion element (or loops) on separated track and they have its own single compression (or multiband) and EQ. They eventually can use a commom bus with delay, reverb or any other CPU-hog effect.
On output, I put another compression (very soft though...) for whole mix (drums, leads, voices etc.) Sometimes, before the output's compression, I compress the drums group, but it depends.
I only put a limiter at the end of the mastering chain (usually multiband-compression, EQ/enhancers/exiters and limiter). Yep, I usually use a lot of compression.
sonik |
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Bmode
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
40
Posted : Jan 10, 2009 23:40
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Quote:
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On 2004-06-16 14:08, Kitnam wrote:
Before we start to talk about generating a KICK we should find out what we expect from a KICK and what our targets are.
For just a few weeks i have made an important experience:
>> There is no need to make the KICK fat and powerfull <<
Before i got "enlightened" in that way, i had used to gerenate KICKS with a very large complexity and tricky editing-procession. I expected from a KICK:
- strong sub-pointer of the 4/4-beat
- balance to the bass
- heart of track-main-structure and overall "sub-feeling" of the track.
- no weak slobber-KICK
The amount was often a very nice powerfull KICK which give the track the last perfection. There is no point to challenge within, at the first view.
But isnt the "feeling" of an element (in this case our element is the KICK) always contingent on the other track-elements which play together with it?
So, listen to some tracks of "The Delta" or "Midimiliz" for example (The following rules consider on fullon-tracks and any other style , too. I have tested it). This guys use KICKS which are very inconventional, usually I would collect them out, if I search a nice KICK for my song.
This KICKS do not fit with everyone of my expection-points I explained on top. If you would play such a KICK solo, It would sound like a droping old banana, not like a cool and perfect KICK. But playing it together with the rest of the song, it will become a very FAT one!
How is that possible?
This guys know how to route their KICK trough the mixer in combination with the other song-elements, correctly. Its like old eastern martial-arts-lore: You will not need to put new strengh into the cycle, if you can reroute and deflect the strengh which is allready there.
What means that?
<< Use compression, chaining and gating. This is nearly all you need. >>
I close my post here with this short information. You have to find out the details by yourself, and this will be no problem for you If you have keeped reading my useless blowen-up-posting until this sentence.
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ayone ever figure that out? |
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Bmode
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
40
Posted : Jan 10, 2009 23:44
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so then why does the kick seem more
prominant and powerful when all elements
play together? if say the kick sounds like a
turd solo?
This guys know how to route their KICK trough the mixer in combination with the other song-elements, correctly. Its like old eastern martial-arts-lore: You will not need to put new strengh into the cycle, if you can reroute and deflect the strengh which is allready there.
What means that?
<< Use compression, chaining and gating. This is nearly all you need. >>
I close my post here with this short information. You have to find out the details by yourself, and this will be no problem for you If you have keeped reading my useless blowen-up-posting until this sentence.
does anyone know ?
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