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FAT
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
Posts :
5306
Posted : Mar 7, 2011 17:01:55
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so , do you prefer the kick or bass to get the main stage in the sub frequencies?
do you try to balance between them or give them total different fundamental to seperate them as much possible?
do you HP filter any of them or both?
what you think about the phase issue with HP filter (seems its losing alof of sweetness even with 31hz filter)
  www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/ |
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
779
Posted : Mar 7, 2011 17:44
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I like both to be of equal power in regards to sub freq.
My kick drums are not 'pitched' in the subs, but sweep through them, when the sub and the bass clash I control with discrete sidechain on the bass.
I HP both. Where I HP depends on the key of the track (well actually exclusively how it sounds) - for example if I am running a very low bass line, I will often deliberately HP the kick higher than fundamental hz of the b-line. If I'm running a high bass line, then I'll let the kick boom through lower down.
I don't HP at 30 - this is often too high - bear in mind that the cut of a HP will extend higher than the cutoff point quite a long way, and when the numbers are small ... it can make a huge difference. For example lets say the HP slopes for one octave higher than the cutoff to get to unity gain (quite reasonable) this is 60hz and well into areas you really really don't want to be cutting out!
I typically cut the lowest section of bass in the 20-30hz (a huge (yes!), 2/3 of an octave range) with a single steep filter.
I maintain my suspicion that the vast majority of 'phase issues' people have with filters are not phase issues at all but the filter doing exactly what they've asked it to do.
I view the HP stage as part of the synthesis of the bass and kick drum. I get the EQ cut where I want it and go back and tweak the synths for uber perfection.
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http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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zabot
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
25
Posts :
174
Posted : Mar 7, 2011 19:29
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nice topic Elad (btw love your sound)
i have the same question here but the speakafreaka reply help me alot thanks  . sound better for me to have equal power on the subs...
cheers all the best peace!
thoughts become things
www.soundcloud.com/zabot |
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PsiloCybian
Mammal Footwork
Started Topics :
92
Posts :
557
Posted : Mar 7, 2011 19:51
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I mix the kick a bit louder then the bass  In my recent tracks i dont use hipass on the kick and bass. I try to mach up the kick and the bass in the patch creating stage so they dont fight but cooperate and after that i add just some light eq and comp.
www.psilocybian.com / www.facebook.com/psilocybian |
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knocz
Moderator
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
1151
Posted : Mar 8, 2011 07:10
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I usually have the beat bus (kick + bass) exclusively on the low end, by cutting everything else individually with a low pass filter around 350 Hz, with a nice curve.
Like this I know there won't be any interference with the subs..
I sculpt the kick and the bass to fit good together and to sound as I want it for the specific track, so the bass will get at least some high pass going on, but only in the mixing stage i would alter the general eq. Even then, it's just some minor boosts or cuts, nothing dramatic.
Any changes during production int the beat goes strait to the source -> kick or bass.
I could probably use a high pass on the beat bus for some more dramatic effects (fade ins or fade outs), or for achieving a specific effect (in a slow chillout track, you could have the leads sidechaining with a high pass filter on the beat or bass bus, just to cut out the high frequencies), but I won't high pass this bus as a personal standard.
I prefer to have exclusivity in the low end for the beat and let it breathe on the other frequencies, where everything else comes on top.
Low pass -> I usually cut the beat bus and the whole track at the very bottom end (may vary from 20 Hz to 80 Hz depending on style) with a slight slope.
Super Banana Sauce http://www.soundcloud.com/knocz |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
8087
Posted : Mar 8, 2011 13:09
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i do like Speakafreaka .
i like the kick bass to sound close frequency wise and try to not hp if possible , but it will be hpassed at mastering if needed or in the mix if there is way too much low end |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
5292
Posted : Mar 8, 2011 13:20
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I tune the kick and bass so that they have the same bottom end tone. I always high pass both the kick and the bass as the synths I use for basslines are too fat and have a lot of sub frequencies present.
High passing the kick and bass is also an integral part of synthesis, but most important is the kick and bass note length, especially the kick and compression settings where I let the transient through the compressor and then slam down on the body and tail of the kick and bass where the sub resides.
It is easier to obtain a solid bottom end if I am using a single note 16th bassline sequence with the bass note absent at the kick note. Things get slightly more complicated when I am making, say an 8 bar bassline sequence with various notes where I need to cater for every bassline note.
I have found that digital/soft synths are easier to control than using analog synth sampler instruments, yet I find the character of analog basslines a lot more appealing to my ears.
Things get a lot more complicated when I am making a tune that does not use the typical 16th bassline pattern.
There was a talk about non psy music that people do. Posted some breakbeat tunes on psymusic and listened to some old breakbet tunes I released in the past, which led me to start making a track where I wrote a groovy bassline that has various note lengths, velocity values corresponding to different filter cut off at some notes and the kick falling on top of the bassline, but not on every note.
That is a nice challenge and delivers a far more interesting groove than the typical 16th bassline pattern. The trick is to get the sidechain just right so that it does not rob the headroom when the kick ans bass coincide, that the bottom end sounds tuned and well defined when the kick and bass coincide as well as when the kick drops on an empty bassline note.
I don't like using anything larger than a 24dB/8ve high pass filter, as it starts inducing some sort of accentuating/ringing around the cut off frequency.
I have never, ever boosted the bottom end when using analog synths for bass and Ultrabeat for kick creation, on the contrary I gently notch some bass out to fit things in....Generally I mostly use subtractive EQing.
Peace out.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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woodster77
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
119
Posts :
1733
Posted : Mar 8, 2011 15:08
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nice thread guys
+1 for Disco Hooligan
Could the phase issues be down too the quality of the plugin and not the freq of shelfing
was just wondering what you guys use for the results you get
°°°ACTS 4:12°°°° |
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makus
Overdream
Started Topics :
82
Posts :
3087
Posted : Mar 8, 2011 15:51
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I hipass if it make bass sound better. Recently I was working on a track and was listening to it on various systems and the bass was overwhelming everywhere, so i ended up cutting up to 70 hz. I don't hipass kicks unless I create them myself with some synth and they have plenty of sub frequencies.
I like when both kick and bass stand out a tiny bit among other instruments. I like a bit of sidechain. And my bass is usually a bit quieter than the kick.
As for subs, well, it may vary from track to track, but mostly my kick has more subs than the bass.
www.overdreamstudio.com |
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dj chichke
Chichke
Started Topics :
83
Posts :
705
Posted : Mar 8, 2011 17:02
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
5292
Posted : Mar 8, 2011 17:04
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On 2011-03-08 15:08, woodster77 wrote:
nice thread guys
+1 for Disco Hooligan
Could the phase issues be down too the quality of the plugin and not the freq of shelfing
was just wondering what you guys use for the results you get
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Inherently filters cause phase distortion and the higher the slope, the more obvious the distortion gets. I use the Sonnox Oxford EQ to high pass things, it sounds slightly (and costs a lot) better than Logic's Channel EQ, which sounds better than Logic's Linear Phase EQ (that obviously delays frequencies around the cut-off point) which sounds better than the SonEQ..which free but the input gain stage sounds very good when overdriven.
These are the ones I have and I can speak of. But even the Sonnox EQ at 36 and 48dB/8ve starts messing with the sound around the cut-off quite a bit.
To my knowledge there is no steep low cut filter that works with no artifact, I'd be happy if one knows of one that does the job better than the Sonnox EQ.
As to overwhelming bass, its not always down to not high cutting high enough. From experience I have found that a lot of times overwhelming bottom end comes from peaks in the 40 to 80Hz ranges, where a notch with not a high Q setting, as it it goes back to ringing, sorts the problematic resonance out. Then I am able to get a better idea whether there is actually too much subs, or not.
Peace out.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
8087
Posted : Mar 8, 2011 17:06
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Quote:
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On 2011-03-08 15:08, woodster77 wrote:
nice thread guys
+1 for Disco Hooligan
Could the phase issues be down too the quality of the plugin and not the freq of shelfing
was just wondering what you guys use for the results you get
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not really a issue but nope . but different plugin may have different filter, some may work better than others but it s not really about the quality of the plugin, more about the design . some might try to minimize ringing for example while some may focus on the roll off curve or something else, have no idea about all this, but depending your needs some plugs might work better than others cause of the algoryhtm used.
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
779
Posted : Mar 8, 2011 17:47
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hey DH,
+1 to the entirety of your post ... nearly 
The thing with phase 'issues' is this. There is no way to know whether these phase artefacts make a sound better or worse without actually listening to the effect in each individual case. Ringing of a freq near the cutoff for example, is not a phase issue. This is in effect a masking issue.
I use the 48dB non linear phase EQ in fab filter pro-q for bass HP duty. I nearly always actively like what it does to the sound. The Sonnox EQ is very very neutral (as neutral as anything I've heard) in how it treats audio ... but why should neutral be better? It is just as possible that the non neutralness of a filter may improve the overall sound.
I'll say again for those at the back ... ringing around the cutoff is not a phase issue ... transient smear is a phase issue. And when dealing with a HP of very low freqs ... transient smear is a virtual non issue ... low freqs just are not fast enough!
Ringing is exhibited even by linear phase EQ. And worse still ... Linear Phase EQ exhibits ring before and after the signal, unlike minimum phase EQ which only exhibits after the signal, so it is always masked to a degree - which is reason number one why I never use Linear Phase EQ.
Why am I so picky about this point? Because the amount of misinformation based on faulty understanding on phase issues in EQ is staggering. If no one takes anything else from anything I've said on the forum, please, remember this - ringing is not a phase issue.
Phase 'rotation' around the fundamental hz for example is just another way of saying phase 'smear' and is a well respected method for treating bass. This is an example of how phase artifacts can actually be beneficial to working with bass. .
http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
5292
Posted : Mar 8, 2011 18:38
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Nobody said that ringing is the audible artifact of phase distortion though?
I said that inherently filters cause phase distortion, especially at higher slopes.
The I said that Logic's Linear Phase EQ delays frequencies around the cut-off point.
Then I also said that low cut filters with high slopes, start messing with the sound. Not that the phase distortion is obvious as there is a lot of ringing.
And like I said before, high passing the kick and bass is an integral part of synthesis.
So I guess we agree
Peace out.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
779
Posted : Mar 8, 2011 19:41
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Reading your cumulative posts, I'd deduce that phase distortion induced ringing. I'd also deduce that phase distortion was in absoute terms a bad thing. This is not accurate.
This, in a nutshell is where I don't agree.
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Inherently filters cause phase distortion and the higher the slope, the more obvious the distortion gets.
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Reads negative, whether meant or otherwise. Statement is accurate, but taken in context with rest of post is misleading by failing to recognise that phase distortion can be a useful tool. Is also misleading in the case of HPing a bass part as how can a steep filter (you say anything above a 24db in the Sonnox EQ induces accentuation/ringing) induce distortion if you cut well below the fundamental to get rid of DC type noises, or very slight envelope amplitude mod noises? This makes no sense - as I'm sure you are well aware. If a HP is inducing ringing around the cutoff on a bass part - it means the cutoff is too high ... not that the filter is wrong ... it should be easy with a much much steeper filter to acheive the postive DC removal aspect of the filter whilst actually affecting overall relative phase coherance of the part to itself less, because the phase distortion on a very steep filter takes place over far less hz than a shallow filter. If you look at it the other way around, I'm sure you will have seen very very very steep LPs employed on a mix, for exactly the same reasons as it is beneficial to employ a very very very steep HP on the bass parts of a mix.
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I use the Sonnox Oxford EQ to high pass things, it sounds slightly (and costs a lot) better than Logic's Channel EQ, which sounds better than Logic's Linear Phase EQ (that obviously delays frequencies around the cut-off point) which sounds better than the SonEQ..which free but the input gain stage sounds very good when overdriven.
These are the ones I have and I can speak of. But even the Sonnox EQ at 36 and 48dB/8ve starts messing with the sound around the cut-off quite a bit. |
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Hang on. Isn't messing with the sound the whole point of an EQ? I prefer ones that sound less neutral than Sonnox EQ for dance music, but love the Sonnox EQ for say classic music because it is so clean.
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To my knowledge there is no steep low cut filter that works with no artifact, I'd be happy if one knows of one that does the job better than the Sonnox EQ.
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Assumes that artifact = bad. This is not the case. There are such things as Phase Rotators for bass which employ these phase artifacts beneficially. some synths employ a key tracking phaser as a psychoacoustic enhancer to rotate the phase of the bass around the fundamental freq. I know this because I've spent a lot of time researching this phenomenon and incorporate it into my own synths ...
As I said +1 to your entire posts ... nearly. We don't agree. We nearly do. I agree with all your sidechain stuff, I agree with you and acknowledge your superior knowledge of breaks. I do not agree with re EQ because it contradicts what I've found to work, and contradicts my knowledge of filter design and how filters work.
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http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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