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Expert advice needed: Bassline tuning with regards to Filter Cutoff
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
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Posted : Jan 25, 2006 06:37
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mquirk is right, eq can change harmonics so is filter which is eq realy.
good advice here .. try listen to it ya know.. i like close abit 500hz and may be concider play with 125hz and 63hz see if it reduce the problem.
acoustics can also make it and when u say E key is the problem.. it makes it obvious.. the synth takes it out the same.. if u have too much change in sound because of notes.. probably bad acoustics or realy high resonance on the wrong cutoff freq.  www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/ |
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 25, 2006 06:54
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have you used other filters then the synths filter?
try that aswell...
and you want to reduce some of the high freq harmonics? do some math and try to Eq like mquirk1 said...
5273,6hz maybe this is where you should notch it 
just kidding
maybe you should take a break instead! too bad about the deadline, but maybe your ears is also dead by the deadline... so stuff wont get any better..
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 25, 2006 07:00
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Quote:
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On 2006-01-25 06:37, tsabeat wrote:
mquirk is right, eq can change harmonics so is filter which is eq realy.
good advice here .. try listen to it ya know.. i like close abit 500hz and may be concider play with 125hz and 63hz see if it reduce the problem.
acoustics can also make it and when u say E key is the problem.. it makes it obvious.. the synth takes it out the same.. if u have too much change in sound because of notes.. probably bad acoustics or realy high resonance on the wrong cutoff freq.
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yeah!
check this out..
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=32159 |
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john_c
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 25, 2006 07:02
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no other filters yet, just the synth's envelope filter.
BTW, when the octave is 1 or 2 higher it soudns fine. Question is, if detuning by like 50 cents sounds better on my current low octave, yet sounds worse when i test it with a higher octave, should i keep what "sounds good" or assume its acoustics and keep the cent at 0?
btw, i read somewhere recently on this forum that X-hum is good for bass. i just tried it and it makes the key sound better, probably cuase of the notched frequencies that X-hum gets rid of. hmmm. |
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john_c
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 25, 2006 07:04
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On 2006-01-25 07:00, New Era Scientist wrote:
Quote:
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On 2006-01-25 06:37, tsabeat wrote:
mquirk is right, eq can change harmonics so is filter which is eq realy.
good advice here .. try listen to it ya know.. i like close abit 500hz and may be concider play with 125hz and 63hz see if it reduce the problem.
acoustics can also make it and when u say E key is the problem.. it makes it obvious.. the synth takes it out the same.. if u have too much change in sound because of notes.. probably bad acoustics or realy high resonance on the wrong cutoff freq.
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yeah!
check this out..
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=32159
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thanks for the link. unfortunately i cant do much to fix my acoustics. my studio currently is in a glass enclose terrace. the whole room is windows, horrible acoustics. it should sound fine on headphones though.
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 25, 2006 07:36
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john_c - tricky questions 
my advice is take a break and dont puzzle your head too much....
the answer is sometimes just infront of you, but you cant find it cause you look in other places....
i say detuning is a delicate thing, but if you think it works, and you really have fresh ears to decide that, then go for it... otherwise stick with what you got and try to put words on what you think is wrong..
is it the pitch, or is it timbre and so on...
it can be very difficult i know
good luck! dont stress, calm down a little,
you know when you cant find a persons name in your head, but if you calm down and go through the alphabet you will soon find it...
Btw X-hum can be nice on some basses..
if it works then go for it... |
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Trip-
IsraTrance Team
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101
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3239
Posted : Jan 25, 2006 08:35
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the solution might be rather simple.
boost that area of the bass spectrum, that sets the harmonic strength... likely be the mids.
Crackling universes dive into their own neverending crackle...
AgalactiA |
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symbiote
Started Topics :
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24
Posted : Jan 25, 2006 09:18
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i wouldn't suggest the "detune until everyting sounds good" approach, at least not without testing it on a wide variety of different speakers and acoustics to make absolutely sure it sounds the same everywhere.
couple more things you can check:
first off, there's definitely a psychoacoustic effect that will cause perception of tone to be less precise as you approach your ears' limits (i.e. roughly 20Hz.) it's something they show in music/audio engineering.
generally, people will start having lots of trouble identifying frequencies/notes below 35-40Hz. it's mostly the first octave (20-40Hz-ish) that's problematic, above that it becomes much easier to identify tones.
you can't really do anything about it unless you manage to change your ear and/or brain, and it's also something that can potentially be made worse because of room acoustics and speaker/headphones flatness.
this being said, headphones have smaller drivers than normal loudspeakers/monitors, so they tend to have trouble reproducing the lower frequencies, which not help either.
so one easy way to fix this is to include a bit of higher frequency content to help the listener perceive tone better. as you noticed, if you open up the filter a bit everyting becomes fine.
so what you will want to do first adjust the filter at the lowest frequency possible at which you correctly perceive tone/pitch. then you can load an EQ and play around with it, and see if you can attenuate those higher frequencies some more with.
on a parametric eq, try playing around with high-shelving near/above 120Hz, or a peak at around 60-70Hz and Q of about 8 (which should give you a coverage of about one octave in that range), and play around with gain. you should really let your ears guide you tho and not hesitate to try anything you want even if you don't understand everything that's going on.
note also that those higher frequencies that help perceive tone don't have to be in the octaves close to the bassline. anything under 3000Hz should do fine, so instead of messing around with eq and etc, you could instead add a part sitting around 600-900hz to double up the bassline and help hear it better without filling up the lowend. see spirallianz - bitnapped (on stereoparkk album) for a very nice example of this.
just keep in mind that (non-linear-phase) EQ and filters affect phase tho, and usually the maximum phase shifts will be at the places where the frequencies are the most cut/boosted, so this might affect you sound in a bad way. if you have a linear-phase EQ (voxengo and elemental audio make some nice ones, har-bal also could be used, etc) of some sort, i suggest you try that if you are going to mess with the lowend.
this being said tho, sometimes normal phase-shifting EQ sounds very good (and is even useful for fixing phase issues! but i digress.)
there's a few things, relating to the initial psychoacoustic effect i described earlier, that you can also check on the synthesis side.
if you have resonance on the filter, turn it off or reduce it as much as possible, as the frequencies at and around the filter's cutoff frequency get amplified. so if you push the filter down in the low end, it might be amplifying some frequency other than your main/root bass note, thus creating a second note/peak in the same octave as your bassline. since it's already pretty hard to perceive correctly a single pitch in that octave, two of them at the same time will definitely confuse you (and any potential listeners.) [edit: sorry just saw tsabeat mentioned this already]
alternatively, you could position the filter's cutoff frequency on exactly the same value as you base/root note, but this won't work well if there's more than one note in your bassline, only one of them at most two if you gimmick around, will get the amplification.
also if you have more than one oscillator going on, and/or FM modulation and/or detuning, this might cause some closely-spaced overtones to be generated, which will definitely heighten the tone-perception problem. if you still have access to the original synthesis gimmick, you can try reducing detuning and/or fm mod. if you only have access to the audiofile then i guess you'll have to go with EQ.
this can also happen with phasers, choruses, distortion and other types of effects, so that's something else you can take a look at if you have any effects that affect bass frequencies.
alternatively, you can use a single straight mono sine wave in the lowest octave to make sure you have the purest tone possible (abd thus easier to perceive), and layer something else above it to add some spice if needed.
in fact it could be a good idea to make a quick test with a pure sine wave in the lowest octave. if you still experience problems perceiving tone then it's very likely not a synthesis/effects/phase issue and just natural tone + room/speakers/headphones stuff that add up, and you'll have to go the add-more-higher-frequency-content-route (which admittedly could definitely be done thru synthesis and/or effects.)
these are just ideas or experiments you can try and think about tho, you can also try the reverse of everything i've named (i.e. adding fm modulation instead of removing, adding effects, etc.)
i also agree 100% with new era scientist, if something like x-hum makes it better, by all means use it. i would only suggest to check and make sure it doesn't introduce other problems (phase, etc), but stuff like x-hum x-crackle and etc are designed for restoration, so it should be absolutely fine.
so that's it, i'm done rambling! [for today] sorry if it's a bit long and for typos, good luck! |
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
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Posted : Jan 25, 2006 10:43
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Quote:
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On 2006-01-25 07:02, john_c wrote:
Question is, if detuning by like 50 cents sounds better on my current low octave, yet sounds worse when i test it with a higher octave, should i keep what "sounds good" or assume its acoustics and keep the cent at 0?
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good question.
2 answers inside.
go with the flow (what sounds good) and dont brake your head for this.
plz concider some things can distort the perfect harmony of sound.. like filter or lfo or modulation or fm or ring modular.
if u trust your ears in the melodic side ( i think u do.. after all u do mention cent here.. most "kids" artsis dont know what is it exept cool pitch bend that sqweeks)
i think if its good in high octave it should sound the same on low octave..
now 2 more questions for u :
do u use "filter kbd track" ? if not try use it.
do u use saw wavform to produce this bass ?
i can try help more after that.
or plz upload samples
or send me the bass i have good monitors i can try give u real advice here.
www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/ |
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john_c
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 25, 2006 18:30
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first off, thanks all, you have been providing some excellent advice here.
symbiote: wow ill try those tips thank u.
tsabeat: yes im using kbd track, i am also using the Env filter knob, and the patch sounds good because its not "static", the filter moves as the note is held and gives the long bass a lot of character. But the problem is, as the filtercutoff moves as the note is playe combined with the length of the note, it starts making you perceive like you are hearing half-semitone differences. The thing abotu my patch is, it sounds incredible on A or C. Around F is where its sounding off, and by the time you get to E, it sounds completely wrong on the bass octave. WHen i get home I will post the link on yousendit and you guys can tell me if it sounds ok. Ill post the +0 cents and the +35 cent (which sounds better to me).
thanks so much everybody. |
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Ajja
Yab Yum
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Posted : Jan 25, 2006 18:49
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e-motion
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 25, 2006 20:43
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thanks new era more or less what i've done... about the intervals i can't understand that part... i tried to learn it thru raven spiral's book but oh well... i can do melodys knowing scales and with my ear so no prob |
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 27, 2006 09:43
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Nik
Error Corrective
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Posted : Jan 27, 2006 15:52
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i have noticed your problem aswell. when using a steep flit env with short decay the note does seem to detune itself.
dont stress you are not alone in this issue.
i wouldnt blame it on room acoustics or monitors its more a side effect of a filt env that is set too high with too fast decay.
the out of tuneness is an upper harmonic of the fundamental being shaped by the intensity of the filter mod with resonance.
When altering the pitch make sure that your base fundamental is still in tune even though that upper harmonic seems tuned.
Over a large club system if that fundamental is out of tune it will be very obvious!
My advice is if it sounds in tune with the low pass filter open keep to that tuning. just because you have filtered that E note it wont stop being an E note - (unless of course you alter the tuning).
It may be necessary to find a bass synth that has more definition at a lower registers.
hope this helps - just speaking from years of tweaking acid basslines!
1-0-1-0-1-0-1-0-?-0-1 |
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fregle
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 27, 2006 16:15
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On 2006-01-25 06:25, john_c wrote:
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On 2006-01-25 06:14, mquirk1 wrote:
Yeah like the guy above me said, it's all about harmonics. When you change the filter cut of, you emphasize some frequencies more then others, and sometimes these frequencies resonate setting up harmonics, and these harmonics tend to "dilute" the note and make it sound kind of a bit off. For instance, if you look at the frequency analysis of the bass as you close the filter, you may notice that the "main" frequency, ie what note the tone is, tends to shift a bit, it's al very complicated but that's basically what it is.
Perhaps try shaping the so und using a graphic EQ instead of just closing the filter, that way you can take out slices of hi end you don't want, while still retaining enough mid range presence to make the tone of the note clear and not have it become muddy and too harmonically complicated.
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hmm thanks for the tips man. but how do i know where to notch EQ? It sounds complex and probably id make the problem worse if i dont know what im doing. Any specific advice? thanks.
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I'd just mak a notch at a very high frequency, and the drag it down... Leave it where it does what you want it to do, and start with the next notch (if necessary)... I would do it like that because it's the ear that's most important, not the maths... |
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