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Trance Forum » » Forum  Production & Music Making - Expert advice needed: Bassline tuning with regards to Filter Cutoff

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Expert advice needed: Bassline tuning with regards to Filter Cutoff

john_c
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  47
Posts :  263
Posted : Jan 24, 2006 22:21
Didnt find this using the search: Here's a problem I'm having that I don't quite have a solution for. Ive recently been making bassline patches (using albino and zeta) that sound really really deep for Progressive House like tracks. What im finding is that when my basslines are really deep, such as, the filter cutoff is pretty low (and not allowing many high frequencies to go through) the "key" of the bassline sounds like its off at least like 20+ cents from the rest of the song. No matter how tune I tune the bass, it just sounds a bit off. Now, as I open up the envelope of the filtercutoff, the sound starts sounding more and more in tune, so I know thats not the problem. Its only when the envelope is pretty closed nad only letting the lower frequencies through that htis starts to happen. So I guess the problem has to do with eliminating frequencies that change the key of the sound? How do u overcome this problem with very deep basslines? Hope this question makes sense.
john_c
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  47
Posts :  263
Posted : Jan 24, 2006 23:57
does this question not make sense guys?
also i forgot to mention, does this have to do with harmonics?
rhuobhe


Started Topics :  0
Posts :  6
Posted : Jan 25, 2006 00:06
it can be about your sound system, i sometimes have a similar problem when using headphones
dma
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  18
Posts :  93
Posted : Jan 25, 2006 00:19
too me it sounds like u have the filter going via pitch in the modulation matrix!!(probably @very low value)
i would make shure u empty the mod matrix of anything that u dont understand what it is doing!!
good luck
john_c
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  47
Posts :  263
Posted : Jan 25, 2006 00:32
dma: thanks but no, i am making patches from scratch. to keep it simple, i have nothing in the mod matrix right now
john_c
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  47
Posts :  263
Posted : Jan 25, 2006 00:33
Quote:

On 2006-01-25 00:06, rhuobhe wrote:
it can be about your sound system, i sometimes have a similar problem when using headphones



its possible. i have horrible acoustics in my room. but it also sounds off with headphones hmm.
robomarket
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  35
Posts :  970
Posted : Jan 25, 2006 01:10
I use headphones-a very nice pair that keep the sound from escaping from the "earmuffs" and i always get fooled with the bass. It's tricky because sometimes you think the bass is good but it's missing in strenght. Try this: play the bass sequence without any other sounds and hold your headphones away from your ears, but still pointed in that direction. This should give you an idea how it will sound on speakers.
Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  60
Posts :  3709
Posted : Jan 25, 2006 03:07
john_c - get your self C-tuner

http://www.samplerchan.com/

put this on the channel and you can roughly see the pitch...

are you certain you got no finetuning knobs dield at something else than zero?

i dont know much about filters but i guess some filters can sound inharmonic.. but you are probably not using comb filters or anything strange so it should not be a problem, but maybe someone can give us a lecture... maybe the osc wave is too odd in harmonics? i really dont know about this stuff, but i would really like to learn more...

anyway have you considerd aliasing? i dont know about Albino and Zeta, but probably they should have anti aliasing oscilators and filters...

are you sure its no other element in the mix that is wrongly tuned? giving you a illussion of the bass being wrong


anyway good luck, hope you solve it!


e-motion
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  71
Posts :  933
Posted : Jan 25, 2006 03:28
nice thingie new era. now how do i tune the rest of the track? i don't feel my tracks bad but anything that can make my music better is good so should we have every element in the same pitch varying only the octave? i'm kinda new to this pitch thing and the theorical musical importance of it (i mostly only care about the scale and adjusting the synth's pitch by hear).
Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  60
Posts :  3709
Posted : Jan 25, 2006 04:54
Quote:

On 2006-01-25 03:28, e-motion wrote:
nice thingie new era. now how do i tune the rest of the track? i don't feel my tracks bad but anything that can make my music better is good so should we have every element in the same pitch varying only the octave? i'm kinda new to this pitch thing and the theorical musical importance of it (i mostly only care about the scale and adjusting the synth's pitch by hear).




Hello my friend!
im not so good at this, i go by ear and i know just a little theory, still practising on it... but here is my view:

No you dont have to have everything in the same pitch, if you have it all in the same pitch it can sound a little sterile if you dont have lots of different timbres that makes it more alive.

as you know certain tones has certain conncetions with eachother.
Consonance and dissonance where Consonance in latin means "sounding together"
from this knowledge we can use lots of tones!

i wont go any further in this, sure i could try some example but i would only dig my self deeper in unknown territory

basicly if you think it sounds good, go for it, somebody tells you its out of key, just tell them you like it that way

all i can say is that just because a tone of a melody is in G dosent mean that some other sound which plays at the sametime has to be in G aswell, there are other keys which G sound good with... and this way you create melodic tensions... though the baseline often sounds best by following the main melodic lead...
i really know too little about this stuff...
but i will try to study more, but im sort of a slow learner..

and to add: its a pain in the ass working with detuned leads and stuff if you dont know the relationship of the tones.
so intervals is good to know...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_%28music%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonance_and_dissonance


illusions
Erebus
Started Topics :  40
Posts :  626
Posted : Jan 25, 2006 06:12
Heh, thats great timing.

This is exactly what I'm having problems with at the moment - I understand (to some extent) the relationship my different sound/leads need to have in regard to pitch/scales. And its fairly simple to do that with a straight forward patch - but what if you have leads/fx that are detuned/pitch modulated/fm'd etc.. what then ? How do you manage to keep those in tune with everything else ?

Anyone else have any answers to this ?

Thanks.
mquirk1
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  63
Posts :  384
Posted : Jan 25, 2006 06:14
Yeah like the guy above me said, it's all about harmonics. When you change the filter cut of, you emphasize some frequencies more then others, and sometimes these frequencies resonate setting up harmonics, and these harmonics tend to "dilute" the note and make it sound kind of a bit off. For instance, if you look at the frequency analysis of the bass as you close the filter, you may notice that the "main" frequency, ie what note the tone is, tends to shift a bit, it's al very complicated but that's basically what it is.

Perhaps try shaping the so und using a graphic EQ instead of just closing the filter, that way you can take out slices of hi end you don't want, while still retaining enough mid range presence to make the tone of the note clear and not have it become muddy and too harmonically complicated.
john_c
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  47
Posts :  263
Posted : Jan 25, 2006 06:21
im kinda stressing out cause i have a deadline for a remix right now to finish. anywayz, ive tryed multiple synths now, im sure its not the fine tune knob. even the bass patches in Atmosphere (which is sampled based) is doing this. HEre's what I noticed though. THe song im remixing is in the E key, which is a very rough Key. E2 sounds way too high for bass, E1 is very rough. On E1 it seems like u start really losing your ear for the main harmonic. When i move all the midi to like C or A, everything sounds in tune perfectly. it seems lke the E key is a troublesome one, especially when u lose frequencies with the filter cutoff. Hmmm. Any advice? I have to keep the key on E for this remix unfortunately. Maybe ill suck it up and make the bassline totally not what I want, with an open filter and a very not-deep sound
john_c
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  47
Posts :  263
Posted : Jan 25, 2006 06:25
Quote:

On 2006-01-25 06:14, mquirk1 wrote:
Yeah like the guy above me said, it's all about harmonics. When you change the filter cut of, you emphasize some frequencies more then others, and sometimes these frequencies resonate setting up harmonics, and these harmonics tend to "dilute" the note and make it sound kind of a bit off. For instance, if you look at the frequency analysis of the bass as you close the filter, you may notice that the "main" frequency, ie what note the tone is, tends to shift a bit, it's al very complicated but that's basically what it is.

Perhaps try shaping the so und using a graphic EQ instead of just closing the filter, that way you can take out slices of hi end you don't want, while still retaining enough mid range presence to make the tone of the note clear and not have it become muddy and too harmonically complicated.




hmm thanks for the tips man. but how do i know where to notch EQ? It sounds complex and probably id make the problem worse if i dont know what im doing. Any specific advice? thanks.
mquirk1
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  63
Posts :  384
Posted : Jan 25, 2006 06:34
I guess it's really all about listening and experimenting to find the sound you want. You could try sloping the EQ down as it got higher then 500-600 hz or something, or maybe boosting it a bit int he 125ish sort of zone to try and bring out the bass sound that still actually sounds like a note. Heh, it's easy to identify the problem I suppose, but fixing it is another matter.
Trance Forum » » Forum  Production & Music Making - Expert advice needed: Bassline tuning with regards to Filter Cutoff

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