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electronic music is dumbing down music as a whole
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Gunter
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Sep 6, 2009 00:15
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This is a totally irrelevant view for me. I base my liking / not liking of music on my feeling and not on my thoughts.
If I start to think very carefully about every art that I get the chance to experience, I will find so many problems, that everything will be shitty in the end, doesn`t matter what it is.
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ocelot
ocelot
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783
Posted : Sep 6, 2009 02:04
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On 2009-09-05 22:45, Basilisk wrote:
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On 2009-09-05 20:57, ocelot wrote:
all electronic dance music is essentially monkeys playing "chopsticks" on automatic-music-making-machines.
some excels beyond this into the realm of sublime actual music. not much IMO... |
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Just wondering... given all the deficiencies you rant on about, is there anything in your own discography that we might check out to hear something different, something reflecting your higher understanding of these matters?
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no.
i quote myself from a few posts back:
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i am complaining generally about how shallow and stupid most electronic music is, including psytrance...including songs i have made... i am not exempting myself... or putting myself on a mountain... smiles or not.
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its a general syndrome...
its a mental box.
perhaps its only in MY head as colin suggests.
i don't think so. there a general self congratulatory tone in the whole electronic thing and the sounds/general styles/whatever... didnt change so much in anything since about 6-8 years...
i am basing all of this rant on my feeling also. the analysis is just sort of to explain what feels wrong.
but something feels wrong.
like its pseudo music. ands its not like i didnt listen to enough of it over the years.
im not suggesting brazilian songs played on the guitar with friends around the fire is the solution or something... just there is a disturbance in the force... the engines have failed or what?
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subconsciousmind
SCM
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Posted : Sep 6, 2009 03:33
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I have listened to lots of Jazz and music from all times. I found great tunes everywhere. And shitty ones too. I've not yet come across a style with a higher concentration of good music.
Two things I can see:
There is no correlation between "big musical knowledge of the artist" and "good music". If that would be the case every song of highly educated musicians would have to be great. But I really can't see that. I actually even see the opposite be true in many cases. The "better" the "pros" get the worse the music becomes.
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People who so called "understand music better" often totally forget what music is about.
 Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht
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3394
Posted : Sep 6, 2009 04:17
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i love simple, amazing, and simply amazing melodies. hey, call me a simple man you know? all that jazz, too sophisticated for me. i wanna feel music in my heart. i must be a monkey love. oh well, tough times lead tough lives. lol
The Way Back
https://faxinadu.bandcamp.com/album/the-way-back |
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Ellon
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Sep 6, 2009 04:32
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ocelot
ocelot
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783
Posted : Sep 6, 2009 05:17
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i feel music with my heart.
my heart is not satisfied with the borg of electronic music that absorbs everything else in its path and doesn't ever change its soul but merely aquires the skins/pelts of the music it absorbs.
some mere decoration... a feather in the hat...
i'll say it a different way- the entire world of music cannot be replaced by the electronic music, but that seems to be the way its going... its not a matter of live-and-let-live its a matter of the borg absorbing everything in its path...
and we are here at the beginning of the borg and we can introduce more HEART DEPTH and SOUL into the borg as it mindlessly decorates itself with the cultures of the ages...
faxi nadu, i share your appreciation of simple beauty, and i think you are having the argument with a different thing i once said, about liking jazz and more complex music. different thread. i this thread i am complaining about something different.
this time i am saying there is a facsimile in the house, it looks like music, smells like music, tastes like music (all more or less) but something is amiss... is like a clone of your mom... not the real thing...
i recognize it may seem hypocritical to just criticize and then continue to produce electronic dance music but we must push ourselves and our scene and my job as an artist is not to be a complacent motherfucker just sitting on my ass protecting my investment of lifeforce but to turn everything inside out and find the missing peices and fix the problems... not to say its ok, but to get to work on the problems... need to identify them first...
if you want me to complain less try changing the forum color from blue to violet... then i will come off my virtious high horse |
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Upavas
Upavas
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150
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3315
Posted : Sep 6, 2009 09:05
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I have often wandered about that too.
Having said hat, I wonder what African tribes would think on this thread. Their entrancing music style has been around for aeons, it is simple, monoton, often with childish melodies, if any, and often very groovy.
Maybe with the advancement of technology we are really degenerating or starting from point zero?
@ Faxi Nadu
I love Jazz!
Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
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Xolvexs
IsraTrance Senior Member
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Posted : Sep 6, 2009 10:12
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its the calm before the storm.
give electronic a chance
soon it will improve...like it or not
electronic is here to stay. yes at the moment it may sound too monotonous and repetitive..but in a decade from now dont be surprised to see EDM replace contemporary classical and modern rock...there is a strong strong possibility. Shpongle is already heading in the classical direction. Infected Mushroom and Skazi are positioning themselves electro-dance-rock. They are transitioning from the underground to the mainstream hence there are many down below that curse them, while the ones above love them. They take chances and chances have paid them well. Almost every psytrance artist wishes that they be paid as well or better than skazi, im , astrix, etc. They have set benchmarks to the extent of commercialization opportunities of electronic music (in the psychedelic style of electronic)...
Electronic music has changed the mindset and lifestyle of people across the world. This is an undeniable fact. To become a DJ is the dream of several toddlers. The dream of being a DJ has replaced Firefighters, Cops, astronauts and doctors in many kids. This is undeniably due to electronic music. It is what it is , sometimes good sometimes not so good, at times outright terrible and at times symphonic...its everything yet nothing...electronic music can either make your life empty to such a degree that you begin to make it yourself or fill you up so much that you need your daily dose to maintain your own mental balance...one of the reasons i have intentionally stayed out of making, producing and djing is simply because i am trying to see what direction is the entire genre of EDM taking, esthetically as well as commercially. As a result i have begun to appreciate music as a whole...and now believe that every genre of music is electronic....your cd player and ipod require electric current without which you would not be able to hear any music other than folk music at weddings and other ceremonies...Electric is everything without it you would not be hearing Mozart and Beethoven in modern times. Either the other genres accept that they are electric or they will disappear. To limit electronica to just club and chillout is narrow sightedness...look at the bigger picture-laptops, desktops, visuals, rip & burn, plug and play...thats electric
When death comes to your doorstep, make sure you are alive |
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Xolvexs
IsraTrance Senior Member
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Posted : Sep 6, 2009 10:49
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Electronic music is like body hair it keeps on growing...like it or not every genre of music has been affected and today no mainstream musician can do without...hence REMIXING...on the one hand u may find this "dumb" but on the other "the time has come"
...electronic music has allowed individuals who typically would have sacrifised their musical careers to a more stable one to continue their with their passion for making music. The cost of making is so low that even a janitor can make music today because of loops. This is its beauty...unlike rock, jazz, classical etc where you need a lot of physical space to store your equipment, to make electronic all you need is a measly 50-100square feet of space, a laptop and a pair of headsets and you can follow your dream to be a musician. This i dont see as "duming" but more as "fulfilling" of the musician in oneself. How good the sound is depends on the quality of your vision rather than the trend. If you vision yourself as just a trend follower there is a possibility of you making crap or there is a possibility of you making genious works of art...ultimately the fruit is nothing but the shit of the tree---its quality of the soil, fertilizer and water that ultimately gets you good tasting orange or apple...but be assured the mushrooms will still grow in shit and just a bite of one mushroom will give you an upset stomach or take you on a journey to your roots... so aim for the stars and get stuck on top of a tree, or aim for the roots and you will find a mushroom...Mushroom or Much-moreroom- to expand...we are entering an age of music where music and sounds will be blatantly used as weapons... Weapons of distortion and Hyper Reality...the only genre of music equipped to pull through is electronic...all music is electronic...but not all electronic is music some of it is white noize and some of it sonic sound waves which if channelized can brainwash a million people to tune in turn out and drop dead....I personally feel the electronic music movement has already contributed more than hippy movement of the 60's..and Logic Bomb-Computers & Microprocessors followed by Datalinks and that makes Unlimited a great album...
When death comes to your doorstep, make sure you are alive |
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ocelot
ocelot
Started Topics :
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783
Posted : Sep 6, 2009 11:02
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which is what i am worried about...
if the electronic simile is considered good enough, why bother to check the real thing?
you realize that our music can be created by algorithms more or less, as our tastes have de-volved to enjoying the raw sound of algorighms. soon the computer will write it and we will stupidly dance like we have trained ourselves to... well its inevitable perhaps?
i started this rant idea while sitting at a festival and hearing some music being played in the chillout that just did my head it and really disturbed me-
there were these indian samples of sitar with a pitch bend in them and this song just dumbly was plunking these around with this usual sort of vocal "aha" also indian sample on top and it occurred to me that the actual song these samples came from was much more interesting and amazing than the stupid ham-handed breaky chill sorta thing the person had made with it...its really sad when the sample comes from a better song than the context you hear it used in...
thats when it occurred to me that entire generations are growing up thinking this is the only music (electronic) because the people around them, maybe even their parents, are so convinced its the only and best thing (like all you people defending electronica... )
IF YOU UNDERSTAND HOW ALL MODERN MUSIC HAS GONE YOU WILL KNOW MY CONCERN!
first was big band, but it was expensive to hire 100 people to play, even if it sounded killer
then came small quartets etc... rock and roll came on the scene. bebop had trios and such...
then came the dj playing records. cheaper yet.
and finally, everything in film today, and in the composed music you find in the fabric of the entertainment industry as a whole, is all composed synthetically and done by one person instead of 100... cheaper.
and so, i totally can imagine electronic music as the easy listening music of the future. everywhere... and cheap!
but i fear this... i tell you, as a person making this music since 1993 and trying to inject some soul into this lifeless carriage, that the mediocre music of electronica will overwhelm the world. while there will still be good electronica, and probably good folkloric music, the main crap you will hear everywhere will be some bad quality electronica.... in dentist chairs, on buses, in shopping malls, just boomchikboomchik everywhere as we all jive to the sounds of acid-loops-ethno-jam-packs-101...
and this point you make about using electricity to records, and playback recordings of sound, has nothing to do with electronically generated, composed, and created music, Senhor Xolvexs
Quote:
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On 2009-09-06 10:12, Xolvexs wrote:
its the calm before the storm.
give electronic a chance
soon it will improve...like it or not
electronic is here to stay. yes at the moment it may sound too monotonous and repetitive..but in a decade from now dont be surprised to see EDM replace contemporary classical and modern rock...there is a strong strong possibility. Shpongle is already heading in the classical direction. Infected Mushroom and Skazi are positioning themselves electro-dance-rock. They are transitioning from the underground to the mainstream hence there are many down below that curse them, while the ones above love them. They take chances and chances have paid them well. Almost every psytrance artist wishes that they be paid as well or better than skazi, im , astrix, etc. They have set benchmarks to the extent of commercialization opportunities of electronic music (in the psychedelic style of electronic)...
Electronic music has changed the mindset and lifestyle of people across the world. This is an undeniable fact. To become a DJ is the dream of several toddlers. The dream of being a DJ has replaced Firefighters, Cops, astronauts and doctors in many kids. This is undeniably due to electronic music. It is what it is , sometimes good sometimes not so good, at times outright terrible and at times symphonic...its everything yet nothing...electronic music can either make your life empty to such a degree that you begin to make it yourself or fill you up so much that you need your daily dose to maintain your own mental balance...one of the reasons i have intentionally stayed out of making, producing and djing is simply because i am trying to see what direction is the entire genre of EDM taking, esthetically as well as commercially. As a result i have begun to appreciate music as a whole...and now believe that every genre of music is electronic....your cd player and ipod require electric current without which you would not be able to hear any music other than folk music at weddings and other ceremonies...Electric is everything without it you would not be hearing Mozart and Beethoven in modern times. Either the other genres accept that they are electric or they will disappear. To limit electronica to just club and chillout is narrow sightedness...look at the bigger picture-laptops, desktops, visuals, rip & burn, plug and play...thats electric
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Xolvexs
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
241
Posts :
2848
Posted : Sep 6, 2009 11:37
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i tend to think of electronic more as an enabler..its like you can buy a pair of converse at $10 but the same pair of converse with some Ed Hardy designs will cost you $150..and most of the designing is done using a computer...and people do see value in it hence they make it and people buy it.
Without the human input a machine cannot perform...the humans build the machine and have designed it. Its capability is restricted only to the limit of the inventors. Beyond that its the user of the machine that breaks through the other side..
When the first Les Paul Electric Guitar and Wa peddles were introduced, most in the industry felt it will fail and cannot be capable of replacing the acoustic guitar....well Jimi Hendrix , a mere user of the technology changed that...similarly when the MIDI (Musical Instrument Digital Interface) was brought to the market, there were no takers..today a MIDI is everywhere.
Another Electronic instrument...Similarly Audio softwares...they have become a general part and parcel of the music biz and development. The guys who make and design and engineer these softwares are human and hence the capabilities of such instruments are limited to the limits of the inventor...but ultimately its the user that tests it to the limit, to point where the user identifies a position and customizes it and eventually the inventor is informed...and The Matrix is just a work of fiction limited to the imagination of mankind...if you can imagine a big lizard you can call it a Dinosaur or whatever you want to call a big lizard.....but a lizard is a lizard and can easily identify itself.
Even if you have the best fake lizard it wont sweat and stink nor will it be capable of producing sensations...yes you maybe able to replicate such sensations but that will depend on the lapse of time, which again is a human concept. Animals and birds do not have that...and a tribal head hunter in Indonesia would dance to the electronic beat
When death comes to your doorstep, make sure you are alive |
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ocelot
ocelot
Started Topics :
94
Posts :
783
Posted : Sep 6, 2009 12:21
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good point..
@ subconsciousmind
i liked your trance album. i heard it all. its nice trance. no problems there...
it doesnt address my point-
im saying "everything is getting homegenized into electronic music because its cheaper and its the borg and our tastes are adjusting to accomodate this movement... and i lament that the borg is not so nuanced, not so FEELING/EMOTIONAL or subtle as the the ayahuasca songs for example with their wobbling singing and odd shakers/rattles, not so rolling as the DunDun drummers, not so expressive as the Kuwali singers,
we take the scales of arabia and smash them into our 12 note scale and its not the same! simply not the same... its not about clever tricks faxinadu, i am saying the borg doesnt have the same feeling capability because we dont know what we didnt put into it because we didnt know it and we didnt put it into it!
our world of music is not the be-all end-all of music, and yet electronic music is poised to take over everything...
ok enough paranoia but i really just wanted to express this because i keep hearing more and more from people who only learned about music inside the borg of electronica and thats fucking sad!
the humans programming the machines and making the software need to think a little bigger if they truly want to subsume the life of the music itself...
@faxinadu also nice goa trance- some phat sounds and i feel your emotionals vibes... no problem...
i still complain about the general borg absorbing everything...
it wont look like goa trance.. more likely it will look like electro 80's retro so that it will be ok to maake all the other musics key changes inside the format when the borg makes the mashups...
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
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1033
Posted : Sep 6, 2009 18:07
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As per my knowledge the USA is a bit different when it comes to electronic music.
I wonder if you may witness another development. You said "raise of electronic music" or "electronic music is praised" I'm not sure are you talking about electronic music in the sense of electronic production methods used in pop music?
If you are talking about electronic music like d&B, minimal, house, trance, psytrance etc. then I really can't confirm this "raise" and "praise" for the part of europe I'm living in. Also that "homogenization" I really can't observe. Popmusic has been mostly shitty at all times, so it is today. We had a certain raise of electronic music up to 2000, but thats long over. Nobody is "praising" electronic music over here. Bands like "air" or "prodigy" had their time, try to get back into the pop every now and then but they disappear.
In Israel that might be completely different again. Are you talking globaly? How do you know of such a raise and praise?
For me electronic music is just one form of music, one that usually is about "tracks" not "songs" and very little about emotion and melody much more about "sound" and the simple will of making somebody dance. Not more. I mostly listen to other music and actually try to break the typical rules of electronic music by making songs instead of tracks.
It seems to me that we are living in different worlds. I really haven't heard anybody say something good about electronic music for a long time. Actually most people I know don't even consider it "music".
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Could you please name me maybe two or three such songs from the 70is or Jazz that are so great and have never been beaten in brilliance by any electronic song?
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Have you thought about that all your arguments are based on observing the music on a specific, rather theoretical, level? Electronic music is also about sound, whereas normal music is using the same sounds, instruments for years, how boring is that? And there are millions of other ways to perceive music, yours is just one of them. You maybe right with all what you say on YOUR level of observation, but you are missing out all the OTHER ways to look at music. Maybe you just miss something that happens on one of those levels you don't look at?
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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Xolvexs
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
241
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2848
Posted : Sep 6, 2009 19:16
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house music orginated in Chicago
disco originated in Philidelphia
US has a very eclectic and commercially successful capitalist approach, unlike the rest of the world. Hence MJ, Elvis Manroe etc could only be possible in US. Pop scene is serious business, unlike the parallel scene of underground which in a way is more socialistic in approach. Most of europe, south america, asia, africa the approach is more socialistic that means provide service and that will make you happy...in the US its no pay no service...its the whole psycho politics that plays into everything you accept and dont. there is a whole book on this. Electronic plays a big role in this. http://www.brainwashed.com/
When death comes to your doorstep, make sure you are alive |
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Hex Osirus
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
14
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497
Posted : Sep 6, 2009 23:34
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Ocelot, who according to you produces good electronic music?
. We have reached a new zone where everyone is learning to create on their own....even someone who has no musical knowlege can now make music and have a blast trying..we are in a grey area now much like everything else in our present time..but this is the way and it is how it is....why complain? I dont understand really...its not at all as bad as your making it out to be....infact its gr8  http://soundcloud.com/seer |
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