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electronic music is dumbing down music as a whole
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ocelot
ocelot
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Posted : Sep 5, 2009 17:47:22
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electronic music is dumbing down music as a whole.
if you were to listen to composed popular music from the 1920's, 30's and 40's
you would see compositional ideas in even the most elementary of songs that i have NEVER heard the equal of in ANY electronic dance music (or chillout)
this is to say NOTHING about the legions of folkloric musics from all the traditional worlds cultures, im just mentioning pop music from the pre-bebop era! rock and roll? forget it. ask any surviving beattle about their best compositional efforts versus the music they were influenced by...
entire worlds of music are reduced to casio-style "auto-accompianment" jam along packs. thousands of years of musical evolution in various lineages are being absorbed incompletely, their flavors stolen without their internal lessons being learned.
(where is polyrhythm in most of electronic music for example? where is the odd-meter music, where is the emotional expression that the grid denies? where are harmonic ideas beyond simple melody/harmony? or even that! usually its only Melody and another copy of the same melody an octave up/down...)
the fans of todays electronic music idolize "retro" style "vintage" electronic music with childish single note plink plink melodies, with sampled chords transposed around willy-nilly, with the most white of beats ever- the 4 on the floor kick drum "disco beat"
the various scales, tunings, and rhythms of the various musics of the entire worlds history have been reduced to some elements you can sample and use inside the context of triad (major OR minor, nothing more complex like a suspended 7th or god forbid anything jazzy and slightly tense) 4/4 based musical structures reflecting the most juvenile efforts from beginning musical composition students.
the people who made the first techno music were deliberately ignorant of the various musical traditions of the world and the western compositional techniques of their own cultures. we now idolize and formalize their "mistakes" as retro, aka cool, sound.
we treat the various amazing musical traditions of the world as mere decorations for our childish "look at how loudly i can ignorantly bang on my computer" musical structures.
in fact electronic music is largely shit and soon it will absorb everything in its path as merely sample cd fodder for yet more musically ignorant composers/producers who can use the increasing support they get from manufacturers of gear/software
(whats the direction cubase and logic have both gone in? more presets, more included samples, kits, preprogrammed rhythms, etc...its never been easier and yet its never been more generic)
we have gone from iconoclasts to being harbingers of the borg of what music has rotted into...
electronic music SUCKS donkey balls and i am sorry but i have been a lackey in this process... i continue to make electronic music and i hope it becomes more than utter shite but i am sad to say that after 20 years trying to convince people to give electronic music a chance, i am not ready to say that it doesn't hold a candle to "real" music where every nuance is a direct expression of a humans touch upon an "instrument" aka a view upon their inner consciousness...
the most sad thing to me, is that the TOOLS and TECHNIQUES for making our shit electronica of today were invented/created by people who actually HAD studied classical musical theory (western) has decided there was insufficient attention paid to the particular TONE and TIMBRE of a given instrument (where mozart might have written notes to play on a violin, cage schoenberg, stravinsky indicated HOW to play that violin differently to achieve different tones... the first divergence from our written musical system...)
so from avante-garde 20th century SCHOOLED composers who knew the full classical and romantic repetoire breaking a few rules,
to unschooled intuitive composers working to break out of the post-rock POP music bubble... big leap... not forward...
not to mention the influence that SELLING this music to people in terms of cds or crowd at an event entails...
yes this is a rant. feel free to argue like you will do doubtless...
i will try to add thoughts as i think of them...
anyway- much disdain for where we have arrived at today...push push push!!! evolve
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Colin OOOD
OOOD/Voice of Cod
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Posted : Sep 5, 2009 19:14
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
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1033
Posted : Sep 5, 2009 19:37
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Very interesting read.
On a musicaly-theoretical level this is possibly all true. I can't say since I have almost no theoretical-musical knowledge.
In my opionion all above can be true and I still don't care because for me as a listener AND a musician it all comes down to the expression of emotion. I've heard music using four notes expressing FAR more than pieces of Bach that surely may mark evolutionary climaxes of music.
In my opinion understanding music, as you do possibly otherwise you couldn't care about how infantile electronic is on a theoretical level, can be a good thing but it has nothing, nothing to do with the expression of the music and in most cases I know only leads to musicians trying to make the most compicated music ever, the most, theoreticaly, developed music ever and whats being killed on the way is simple personal expression.
I like music that touches me. Thats all. Everythin theoretical beyond that.. I don't care. It's just head-stuff.. music is from and for the heart, so why should I care?
I'm sure my music may be pretty infantile and since I know nothing about harmonies and stuff my music definitly doesn't hold ingenius musical ideas and stuff. But, and I can say that with my whole heart and soul, my music is what I am. It expresses my emotions on a level I had never thought I would be able to do. I'm happy with it and I know I made other people happy with it too. I think this is all that counts.
Its about expression. and not how it is achieved. It's about what you say and not how you say it. Maybe you have the time to listen to my stuff and give me your theoretical opinion on my composition skills. I would be interested on how my music is for somebody who understands the theory and history as you do and has the capability to analyze it on a mental level as opposed to me who analizes emotionally only.
 Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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ocelot
ocelot
Started Topics :
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783
Posted : Sep 5, 2009 19:53
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perhaps the emotions expressed also lack nuance?
(emoticons for example... happy, sad, etc...)
i put it to you this way, if you accept a limited range of expressive modalities, and say that the other stuff doesn't matter and is just a "head trip" isn't that a recipe for reduced possibilities of expressive modalities?
you dont know what you dont know (what you are missing)
just saying "i feel it and like it" is bullshit because you are responding to 3 canned meals and saying "who needs fresh food i choose option 2 as its good enough"
FYI- my rant is based on what i FEEL from the plastic world of fake music,
i only use musical theory to explain WHY i don't like plastic music...
initially its a gut reaction from the very bottom of my soul. i reject this borg of bullshit...
basically, i see right through those who are acclaimed as virtuosos of electronic music. i see the lies and hype. i see the most simple musician doing something we have forgotten about in electronica...
and i feel it...
just before we start thinking we are really on to something, better to check ourselves... for the sake of progress...
ok i'll check your tunes- but thats nothing to do with my general dissatisfaction with the legacy we are leaving the future... a legacy of mediocricized casio crap. |
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
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5306
Posted : Sep 5, 2009 20:22
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buy keyboard and learn to play scales and use them!
electronic music done with electronic instruments is not programing of loops!!
i dont see the finnish superstars lol like haltya or outolinto afraid to use unquantized beats or jazz scales.. oh and yeah it is better then most psytrance that is described up here. maybe just to my ears according to lineups around the festivals but hell thats exacly my goal.. to get to this stages and 'show them' u can do it other way.
i defintly remember your smiling face during my set in altai.. say what you want it made you happy.. you like it. even if its simple sometimes so what? whats wrong with 3 chords songs sometimes as well? its not like you listen to psytrance 24/7.. its just part of life when i feel like it.. other times other music fit better and i dont even want trance to try fit into those moments.
anywayz my next 2 live gigs are going to be with my brother wich have degree in jazz music (drummer)
i sure hope we gonna elevate the quality - musical wise , and dance wise as well.. its still more fun to be at rock concert rather then have the dj infront of you stuck in his laptop..
i say , next time you open cubase first thing before bpm change the 4/4 to something more interesting. maybe turn off that little 'stick to grid' button too.. hell make a bit on the keys with your fingers.. get the 'live' sense into it. mouse tweak is no fun anywayz
oki studio time? yay!  www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/ |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
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1033
Posted : Sep 5, 2009 20:28
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So what do I have to do to know what I am missing?
If I have to get deeper understanding of musical theory first, then I object. Otherwise I'm very interested.
By the way. I share your frustration about electronic music and music in general. But I don't see any lack in complexity or usage of musical theory. I see a lack in genuinity of expression and exactly what you say about "nuance" in the expression. Probably we feel the same but you kind of find the cause in another area.
I think we met shortly at a party in switzerland, I played after you I think. Then the police came and I had to play live in living-room volume. You remember? Anyways I liked your music and I didn't know if its highly complex and advanced or not. I just found it felt right.
"I feel it and like" is bullshit if you do not have the ability to feel deeply and consciously. And most of all a lot of people don't feel the difference between fake emotions and real emotions. But if your feeling is tuned right then it is all that's needed for music and its great.
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
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Posted : Sep 5, 2009 20:30
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Quote:
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On 2009-09-05 20:28, subconsciousmind wrote:
So what do I have to do to know what I am missing?
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listen to jazz , classical , and 70's funk music
make little research to find the best of them.
thats pritty much x20 more developed from any psytrance track ever made.. according to milion music teachers anyhow. not that they can actualy make psy track in cubase but i do believe they can learn it way way way faster then you can learn scales and all the theory (that has been proven in life - its math after all)
you think they sound good not cause they learn the theory? well , cant agree less with you
or more then that , they still use the rules if they know it or not. www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/ |
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faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht
Started Topics :
282
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Posted : Sep 5, 2009 20:55
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i don't listen to music to say "woooooow omg the guy is so talented, omg the drummer is so awsome, omg this is genius composition". i listen to music to get touched physically, emotionally, spiritually. the trick is to touch, and it can be with a 3 note hook, or with a "genius" jazz improv. it really doesn't matter.
The Way Back
https://faxinadu.bandcamp.com/album/the-way-back |
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ocelot
ocelot
Started Topics :
94
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783
Posted : Sep 5, 2009 20:57
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i must say before everyone starts getting "notey" with psytrance:
its not very nice to hear different notes played with zero regard to the harmonics inside the sound itself... thats the casio thing im talking about... a good consciousness of drone music and micro pitch variations are essential for anything thats basically modal. the mindless overuse of melodic elements without regard for the harmonic content of the sound is part of the problem of "casioization" i speak of
keyboard=notes=western scales based on pythagorean ratios and practically based on vibrating string harmonic series...
gamelan is hitting metal objects=whole different set of harmonics and thus using a "keyboard" from a piano-forte a mechanistic invention in western music- relatively recent too mind you, is useless for gamelan... alternative tunings help...
anyway- i find "notey" psytrance sounds like synthesizers playing songs...
not very trance-inducing but rather like Wendy Carlos "switched on Bach"
the format of psytrance is the format of psytrance- some concepts complement it well, some don;t....
i am complaining generally about how shallow and stupid most electronic music is, including psytrance...including songs i have made... i am not exempting myself... or putting myself on a mountain... smiles or not.
but i encourage you in your musical explorations Elad and subConsciousMind....
i only started this thread in case people think we have arrived when in fact the journey has just begun...
we did not hit anything Golden yet, despite Pavels deference to the originators of the early music in our scene.
all electronic dance music is essentially monkeys playing "chopsticks" on automatic-music-making-machines.
some excels beyond this into the realm of sublime actual music. not much IMO...
lets keep pushing... i see a tendency to rest and say the work is done and its all perfect |
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faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht
Started Topics :
282
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3394
Posted : Sep 5, 2009 20:59
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ocelot
ocelot
Started Topics :
94
Posts :
783
Posted : Sep 5, 2009 21:03
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the 3 note hook doesn't touch me.
you must be emotionally unsophisticated:)
sorry if thats insulting but thats kind of what i feel like saying you know...
does a person simply feel "happy" or "sad" like an emoticon?
if not, why do we tolerate such plastic melodic constructs that we would never tolerate in even the most rudimentary of rock or childrens songs?
maybe electronic music is for the emotionally retarded and i am finally waking up to the fact that im an emotional retard.
anyway- its not about "genius 3 note hooks" or "sophisticated headjob jazz"
its about- how can we arrogantly think we have surpassed thousands of years of music with our stupid shite? |
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ocelot
ocelot
Started Topics :
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783
Posted : Sep 5, 2009 21:04
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it sounds like you are saying "whatever" mr faxinadu...
i dont buy it man.
you think we are an epic scene of space explorers making music no-one could have concieved of before?
hahahahahaha |
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Colin OOOD
OOOD/Voice of Cod
Started Topics :
95
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Posted : Sep 5, 2009 21:20
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Quote:
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On 2009-09-05 21:03, ocelot wrote:
how can we arrogantly think we have surpassed thousands of years of music with our stupid shite?
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How can you assume that people making electronic music arrogantly think they have surpassed thousands of years of music with their stupid shite? Or dismiss all - or even most - electronic music as 'stupid shite' in the first place? Some is, some isn't, and whichever side of that fence you think a particular piece falls on is decided not by a scrupulously scientific analytical process but by our individual tastes and senses of musical appreciation.
Don't assume that the way you see things is the way it is for everybody.
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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Basilisk
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
168
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2984
Posted : Sep 5, 2009 22:45
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Quote:
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On 2009-09-05 20:57, ocelot wrote:
all electronic dance music is essentially monkeys playing "chopsticks" on automatic-music-making-machines.
some excels beyond this into the realm of sublime actual music. not much IMO... |
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Just wondering... given all the deficiencies you rant on about, is there anything in your own discography that we might check out to hear something different, something reflecting your higher understanding of these matters?
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Pavel
Troll
Started Topics :
312
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8647
Posted : Sep 5, 2009 23:08
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I generally agree with you here Ocelot. I went from being a huge Electronic music fan in the 90's to "what the hell is this noise get me some Neil Young" in the end of the 00's. All the new music that I get very rarely moves me the bit. I blame my age though. Surely it's one of the "merits" of getting older.
Everyone in the world is doing something without me |
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