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Does religion still have a place in this scene?
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Maine Coon
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 6, 2010 17:56
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I think you were thinking about Jefferson. I seem to remember he was the only atheist among the Founding Fathers. Or at least he did not belong to any organized religion. He did study religions quite thoroughly, though.
Don't know why you even mentioned Einstein. Maybe it was a joke I did not catch. |
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Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 6, 2010 18:06
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On 2010-05-06 17:56, Maine Coon wrote:
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I think you were thinking about Jefferson. I seem to remember he was the only atheist among the Founding Fathers. Or at least he did not belong to any organized religion. He did study religions quite thoroughly, though.
Don't know why you even mentioned Einstein. Maybe it was a joke I did not catch.
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Heh I just have some jaded humor from discussing this with so many people for many years. There are lots of quotes from him that make u think he's an atheist. I like this one:
"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -Albert Einstein
and this:
"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms." -Albert Einstein
I read his autobiography a few years back and he commented on how people kept taking his quotes about religion out of context and assuming he held beliefs or not. Stephen Hawking is kind of the same way, using the word "God" as a placeholder rather than an affirmation of a belief. http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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Maine Coon
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 6, 2010 18:33
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Well, those quotes just show that he did not agree with the "official" idea of God. Does not mean he discarded the whole idea of the Supreme. I think his obsessive search for the Unifying Theory and his arguments with the fans of randomness and uncertainty are a reflection of his belief in the single creator. He had a serious falling out with his quantum mechanics friends towards the end of his life because of this.
Well, it's a guessing game either way. Hawking actually explicitely stated that his theory did not find any reason to bring God into the picture. I don't think Einstein ever said something like that. Maybe he would've - after unveiling his Unifying Theory. Or maybe he would've said just the opposite: this is the most fundamental Law, which can not be derived from anything more general - therefore it had to be set up by a Creator outside the material realm. That's what I would've said, anyway. |
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Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 6, 2010 18:58
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Well, I don't rule out the idea of a god being the divine creator of the universe, but I consider myself an atheist since I don't have a reason to outright believe in this ideology. This is a point of view other atheists share as well, but I think the definition of atheism has changed over the years.
It's far more acceptable now to be atheist than it was even just 50-100 years ago. In the past people who even challenged the teachings of the church would be outcast or even killed for their lack of faith. We're basically interpreting quotes that were said in the past and applying a current definition of a word.
I think Einstein was just so perplexed by quantum entanglement that he didn't want to rule out God 
http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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Maine Coon
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 6, 2010 19:51
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On 2010-05-06 18:58, Ascension wrote:
It's far more acceptable now to be atheist than it was even just 50-100 years ago. In the past people who even challenged the teachings of the church would be outcast or even killed for their lack of faith.
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Depends on a place.
I could say exactly the opposite about the USSR. But then one may argue that atheism was the official religion then and the Party was the State Church.
It sucks either way - the political pressure in spiritual matters that is.
BTW, consider this quote:
"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."
In other words, if you believe - good for you. If you don't - you just don't get it (yet), but it's entirely your business.
Just like the First Amendment, except in the 7th century Arabia.
P.S. I just realized we are drifting into the spiritual off-topic territory, so I'll get back to this discussion.
1) I respect everybody's right to believe whatever they want and express their beliefs, as long they are not violently pushed onto others. And this includes the rights of party organizers and decorators. So, in this case I disagree with Buddha Monkey.
2) I can not stand fake people - especially when they are fake about something as sensitive and personal as religious/spiritual beliefs. So, if those images are there as a fad - I am with Buddha Monkey.
... Sorry, I meant "V3NOM"  |
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Ascension
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Posted : May 6, 2010 20:23
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Heh yeah we drifted a bit there, but good talks. I agree with ur 1 and 2. Respect is the name of the game.
I also like that there are people like you who I can have an intelligent and respectful conversation about a very sensitive subject. http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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Fometrius
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 6, 2010 20:51
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A text that describes a conversation between Einstein and a nurse in the last end of his life:
"As the nurse is bending down to straighten his sheets, and allows a small golden cross, suspended around her neck by a chain, to fall loose, swinging away from her body toward the professor’s face. He looks at it thoughtfully and, as the nurse leans forward and asks her: “You believe. . . in God?
Hesitating for just a moment, as though parsing the old scientist’s motives before forming an answer, the nurse finally replies with a smile: “Yes. Yes I do.” She hesitates again, and then adds: “Do you . . . believe?
The camera pans back to a station behind the nurse, showing the pair engaged in their intimate exchange, the professor’s wrinkled face, the eyes gazing off into the distance. “Do I believe that someone plans the daily life of Albert Einstein?” he says, and then shakes his head slightly to emphasize anegative reply, “No,” he says, and then in a more animated pose, his brow slightly furrowed and a smile lurking beneath his broad mustache, he continues; “Although, sometimes I think he may have been leading me up the garden path.
But, didn’t he make the garden?” The nurse’s reply is thoughtful as the camera moves to a close up of just her face, and then back to the two in intimate conversation, and the old man’s tentative reply crosses his lips: “I think he IS the garden"
Almost without hesitation the nurse picks up the thread of the professor’s thought and says: “But, isn’t he the gardener too?” To which the old man looks straight at the camera and replies thoughtfully: “Yes, and all my life I’ve been trying to catch him at his work.” |
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TranceVisuals
TranceVisuals
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Posted : May 6, 2010 21:28
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On 2010-05-06 20:51, Fometrius wrote:
“Yes, and all my life I’ve been trying to catch him at his work.”
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"There once was a man who said though,
It seems that I know that I know,
What I'd like to see,
Is the I that knows me,
When I know that I know that I know."
A. Watts
www.youtube.com/trancevisuals
2,000,000+ views and counting. |
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Maine Coon
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 6, 2010 21:51
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On 2010-05-06 20:23, Ascension wrote:
I also like that there are people like you who I can have an intelligent and respectful conversation about a very sensitive subject.
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We all have much more in common than we usually would like to admit.
Often light comes from a side we were raised to oppose or even hate. You don’t need to be a Hindu to have a statue of Ganesh as a reminder to keep your chin up. You don’t need to be a Muslim to find an enlightening verse in the Koran. You don’t need to be Christian to celebrate Christmas or Easter.
Kinda unrelated: I have an English friend who celebrates the 4th of July
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rich
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 21, 2010 11:50
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The original poster might be confusing religion with 'spiritual way'.
I have a question for all those (athiests) who claim there is nothing spiritual of this music (we call psytrance etc). That it is just sounds made from a computer (and they use words that I never really learned, like by-pass filter, cutoff something or rather, "saw wave". And they say where do you find spirituality in that?
So my question to the above people is: What tracks do you play for someone who's never heard psytrance before, who is an audiophile. Something you would call 'very psychedelic' (if you athiests do call it that )
(you may answer in the thread that asks that question, but please state you are a non-spiritual psytrance listener.)
Thanks |
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Beat Agency
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 21, 2010 11:56
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On 2010-05-21 11:50, rich wrote:
The original poster might be confusing religion with 'spiritual way'.
I have a question for all those (athiests) who claim there is nothing spiritual of this music (we call psytrance etc). That it is just sounds made from a computer (and they use words that I never really learned, like by-pass filter, cutoff something or rather, "saw wave". And they say where do you find spirituality in that?
So my question to the above people is: What tracks do you play for someone who's never heard psytrance before, who is an audiophile. Something you would call 'very psychedelic' (if you athiests do call it that )
(you may answer in the thread that asks that question, but please state you are a non-spiritual psytrance listener.)
Thanks
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I do know all the technical words regarding Synthesizers and I am indeed an Atheist
Does Religion fit this scene? Did it ever fit?
I agree that spirituality is a different thing even though it can be linked to a religion.
For me personally I dislike religious symbols no matter what religion they belong to and I do not think they fit into a party situation.
I respect people's right to their religion but I do expect them to keep their religion to themselves and do not like when I am having a religion, spirituality or symbols forced upon me no matter if it's at a party or in daily life.
And last. I let people discover their own music. I never try to introduce them to what I like UNLESS they ask themselves. And then I probably play some downbeat www.beatagency.dk |
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rich
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Posted : May 21, 2010 12:10
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Thank you for your honest answer!
It's really funny, because this:
"For me personally I dislike religious symbols no matter what religion they belong to and I do not think they fit into a party situation.
I respect people's right to their religion but I do expect them to keep their religion to themselves and do not like when I am having a religion, spirituality or symbols forced upon me no matter if it's at a party or in daily life. "
Is exactly the way I feel about music, when people make it shitty! Like how people took psychedelic trance and created contrived silly trash! And they have the idiocy to compete with each other, 'polishing' the production! That feels to me like the same thing you must feel when people jack off with their religious symbols (ism) in public. Keep that shit (shitty music) to yourself!
I can dig it.
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rich
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 21, 2010 12:13
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And downbeat is a cop-out dude come on! You know what I mean. The stuff that rocks your bones. (or is that it? ) |
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kazuku
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Posted : May 21, 2010 12:20
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The symbols as they are used in psychedlic/trance culture dont point to any religions in particular, they point to the experience which undelies all religions at their very core. An experience, not a teaching, some thing words and symbols cannot describe. The experience that all is one, exverything and that the force that holds everything together is love.
Maybe I am naive, but I still believe it is this energy that has surrounded and driven the psytrance/goa scene from the start....sure today everything is diluted, but I still feel the real underground psychedelic spirit is alive, just have to search.
Imho this psychedlic spirit is what set this scene apart from the purely hedonistic club culture.
I never saw religious symbols as a threat... mostly they are widely accepted symbols that have been around for ages, like Ohm/Om/Aum... the symbols arnt trying to convert anyone, they are just representations of expereinces in a psychedelic state of mind, and afterall this is what trance dance leads to....
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rich
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 21, 2010 12:38
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And I agree with you too.
When I'm in an open and sensitive state, I want to be guided in a direction that leads where I want it to lead (happiness, fulfillment, strength, etc)
Not anywhere else.
But
I don't think I've ever been captivated by a visual at any party (since 1999). It's always the music, for me. and whatever 'visions' I have are from my own eyes and brain, feelings etc. I make my own religious symbols and they make me smile and say fuck yeah
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