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does anyone use synapse orion
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ZilDoggo
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
663
Posted : May 13, 2004 13:19
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das fung,
no, not -30db difference .,,
you get the idea tho.,
the result in the difference file is at -30db
and i expect it at -144db (24 bits) .,
so you get 144db (for the 24 bits) MINUS 30db
equals 114db difference with the original!!.,
so i assume those cannot be calculation errors.,
it's either the mixing algo or the sample player doesnt work correctly .,
i'm not sure anymore which rendering algo i used., i'll test them all in the future, just to see what they do.,
"P.S.about your synth project if you need beta checker , graphics designer , presets cretor or just opinion you are freely welcome"
 i'll keep it in mind !
greets,
aka.,
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EYB
Noized
Started Topics :
111
Posts :
2849
Posted : May 13, 2004 13:54
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ZilDoggo, i think you know, there are two ways of playing back samples in fruity, first one is using the built in sampler (which i think is responsible for the different sound) and the second one is using the audiotracks.
Did you tested the audiotrack too?
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ZilDoggo
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
663
Posted : May 13, 2004 20:10
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"The problem that ZilDoggo can't proove anything because Fruity proccess signal when it loads and Cubase&Logic not so his test is useless ! "
it does??., this is interesting .,. do you know what kind of process it is?., ., in the end i want to find out what the different sequencers do at mixing level and read more about the pro's and cons of the techique., so if you have any more info i'll be happy to hear from you.,
"Cubase and Logic have more accurate way of sequence but again i don't think that Fruity harm quality of sample playback ! "
well, according to my ears it actually 'enhances' the samples., but it does something strange to the high frequencies, sounds like a cake-icing ., it's smooth but it does sound different.,., and it changes phase relations., so you can get into trouble if you rely on it.,
"like in Progressive music which Zildoggo and me trying to produce sound level is much higher than in Psychedelic .
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yeah, less sounds = better compression = more power to the sounds playing
"it same that we will compare digital sound to analogue ! "
agree, it's just good to know that there is a difference so ppl can listen for it and decide if they like it or not.,
anyway,
greets.,
aka., |
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phunster
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
58
Posted : May 14, 2004 10:35
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I use Orion
like it for the high quality and even the simplicity to obtain good sound tracks ...
let this topic grow more !!! |
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ocelot
ocelot
Started Topics :
94
Posts :
783
Posted : May 14, 2004 19:29
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Quote:
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On 2004-05-13 00:27, ZilDoggo wrote:
"so my big question to you Zildoggo is this:
are you developing audio software? "
actually,
i started developing a sofsynth recently.,
it's still in a very early stage but it's progressing nicely.
whats its dealio? subtractive stylee? physical modelling? granular???
btw.,
i did a good test with reason and it realy realy plays around with phase., the difference between original and reason output spans the whole dynamics range (!!) at certain points., realy strange., could be either phase f*&^#d up by mixer or the sampler is not providing the buffer with data on time.,.,
you are talking about a phase shift introduced between the pcm file itself stored on the hard drive and the output of the software rendered or playback right?
i don't think there is any audible difference until you start varying this phase shift between tracks.
"btw- here's an example of a good pro audio mixing algorithm.
add the samples (amplitude) and divide by # of trax:) "
yeah, i expect this to happen (samples should be added, the division depends on the application of course)
it is actually what i test for .,., if you play back a bit of audio through a sequencer then the output at 0db should be exactly the same as the original .,
i test for this by substracting the original from the ouput of the sequencer.,
if the mixing algorithm is good then the result should be empty., anything different from zero means that there was some sort of calculation 'error'.
please describe your methodology.
again, if this describes a uniform phase shift introduced on all tracks then i'll contend you can't hear it and it doesn't matter...
i've tested logic, fuity and reason at the time.,
sorry guys, but of the three logic was the only one that did a sample precice mix of 4 audio tracks.,
fruity had a resulting difference at around -30db i think., and reason had differences all over the place.,
so here you go, .,
same question- is this phase shift uniform?
if so- doesn't matter...
i'll bet this has little or nothing to do with the mixing algorithm. perhaps some other delay/latency within the system?
still not saying one is better from the other.,
but there is definitely a difference between the three.,
so this topic is not as simple as just adding samples,.,
a good test might be to mix two audio files that are already 180 degrees out of phase with each other. if you get any output then you have some phase shifting where it matters soundwise.
anyway,., .,
"i could go on and on but i'll shut up now thank you."
yeah, since i already know all the stuff you're saying  (joking) , .,
very much agreeing with you tho!.,
i think its really important to take the bullshit/magic and mystery out of digital audio. if the average user only sees a magical machine powered by a humonculous they will be more likely to be awestruck by advertising, swayed by marketing and hype, and won't really have criteria judge it by.
to be completely anal it would be better to hold pro-tools up as the standard for pro audio treatment as logic is a midi sequencer from the atari that added audio later.
logic=cubase=digitalperformer=cakewalk...
same thing more or less...
denormalisation sux,
greets.,
aka.,
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ocelot
ocelot
Started Topics :
94
Posts :
783
Posted : May 14, 2004 19:35
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and if we talking about quality of Electronic Music today so it has huge difference between levels of different genres
like in Progressive music which Zildoggo and me trying to produce sound level is much higher than in Psychedelic .
after years of producing progressive and goa trance (i do mostly hard psy these days with some prog) i have to say that psychedelic trance is harder to mix (as in mixdown not dj)
1)there are more sounds
2)each sound has more amplitude and frequency range that needs to be handled and dealt with
this is in addition to the compositional differences- i find progressive really easy to make- it uses familiar ideas and comfortable sounds. i get musical with it and its a symphony in five minutes...
whereas psy takes something deep from within my creativity just to think of each lead or riff... |
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ZilDoggo
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
663
Posted : May 14, 2004 20:28
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"you are talking about a phase shift introduced between the pcm file itself stored on the hard drive and the output of the software rendered or playback right?
i don't think there is any audible difference until you start varying this phase shift between tracks. "
let me explain what i did.,
i first created 4 24-bit wave files.,
1 - sine sweep low - hi
2 - sine sweep hi - low
3 - saw sweep low - hi
4 - saw sweep hi low
the sweeps had a big bandwidth,. something like 20-20k or so
all were scaled to -12db so that when mixed they will be exactly at 0db., (btw, soundforge miserably failed to reduce the level by 12db, both inacuracies and errors popped up!! in the end i used wavelab to do it and it works perfectly (actually throwing away the two least significant bits))
then i used wavelab to mix them back together to get master wave 5.
i use this fifth wave later on to subtract from the resulting file i get from a program.,
so the test is :
-play the four test waves through a program, (or mix them togather somehow)
-record the outcome,
-in some cases, normalise this output file (this will instantly introduce a little LSB errors but these are quite low in a 24 bits file.,
-truncate the result wave so that it starts at the same point as wave 5
-subtract wave 5 from the result.,
now whatever is left is due to the sequencer.,
i tested this on soundforge, logic, reason and fruity loops.,
soundforge and logic gave identical results to wavelab ., so the result of the subtraction is a completely empty file,..
reason gave huge differences and fruity gave milder differences but still there (at around -30db)
the strange thing with the reason mixer was that the beginning and end were almost identical to wave 5.
but in the middle there was a lot of difference, sometimes as high as 0db.,
i'm not completely sure why it happens but i've got some ideas.,
one idea is that there is some sort of multiband compresion/limiting going on.,
then, when all four waves are playing in the same region (in the middle of the sweep) it realy kicks in and does its stuff.,
this would be consistent with my experience that sounds eat away each others energy in the reason mixer .,. (very nice to get together-sounding groovs but a nightmare to do a full mix on.,)
anyway, now you can all do the test,
just make sure you match the start of the resulting wave to the beginning of wave 5.,
happy testing,
greets.,
aka., |
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reptilian agenda
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
24
Posted : Jul 7, 2004 13:02
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ack you guys are giving me a headache....
although i would agree that different sequencers sound a bit different...
but it all sounds the same rendered....
anyways i use orion cause its kickin'.
i like to operate fast or i'll lose the groove.
tracks should be "almost done" over night.
although there are a few things i don't like about orion platinum (v3.7 anyways)
1.- NO selection tool for automation events (ei copy & paste)
(so if you want to add a part in the middle of your track, after track events have been layed down, you have to redraw all the automation, for all automated instruments (the more the worse off) after that point.
2.- Not being able to record external hardware within th UI..
3.- Also the D_D_D_D_B_B_B_ really loud clip noise crash sound when you do things too fast
if there are any solutions to these limitations.....enlighten me |
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ZilDoggo
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
663
Posted : Jul 7, 2004 13:31
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"anyways i use orion cause its kickin'.
i like to operate fast or i'll lose the groove.
tracks should be "almost done" over night. "
this is a very good argument for using proggies like orion., you get some basic stuff done very quickly.,
greets.,
aka. |
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reptilian agenda
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
24
Posted : Jul 7, 2004 15:10
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ya just gotta funkin' give er eh ?
how the hell are a bunch of confused hippies supposed to bend their warped little heads around something like logic audio anyway ? |
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