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does anyone use synapse orion
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Francis604
Started Topics :
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12
Posted : Apr 9, 2004 07:12
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as the topic says im wondering if im alone using this software ... as there lots of bug
songplaylist is in my own opinion one of the best way to create good production .. |
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Francis604
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
12
Posted : Apr 9, 2004 07:14
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mubali
Mubali
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71
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2219
Posted : Apr 9, 2004 21:13
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I used to use Orion, I didn't really like how it sounded. I know that the Fractal Cowboys and Ocelot use Orion, and they can make it sound pretty good, but personally, I can't live without Logic. I am not saying that you need Logic or Cubase to make quality music, but the best results I have gotten were from Logic.
 An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
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ZilDoggo
Started Topics :
4
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663
Posted : Apr 10, 2004 17:01
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good tools make it EASIER to get a good sound.,., they do not monopolise it 
grts,
aka.,
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ocelot
ocelot
Started Topics :
94
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783
Posted : Apr 13, 2004 22:36
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i use synapse audio Orion Platinum 5.2 and could not be happier.
the 'sound' of a given host usually has to do with playback volume levels. a given host should not be changing the frequency spectra of the sound.
by this criteria i'm going to have to bitch slap every person who says 'x sounds better than y'
its usually just a matter of gain...
the bit depth and samplerate of rendered audio output from orion is limited to 32bit 96khz. this is more than adequate for cd quality sound (16bit 44.1khz) and exceeds the specs of most hosts by far. I like to use the built in Wasp and Sampler modules. the Sampler makes Recycle obsolete (although it loads REX files as well as any other kind) with its built in groove slicer. The Wasp can do most any sound and particularly excels at LFO-pitch mod type sounds. It has an excellent bp and hp filter.
As far as VST synths go, the Disco DSP Discovery has me hooked... VStation by novation has some really nice synchable LFO's but its lp only filter could use some work.
Yeah, just use the host you like- orion, fruity, cubase, logic, dp, pro-tools, reason, whatever...
there are tradeoffs to most.
Orion has very few trade offs. i Think its the best host out there but thats my opinion and i love it no questions asked so there... |
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ocelot
ocelot
Started Topics :
94
Posts :
783
Posted : Apr 13, 2004 22:42
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greg- i've had this discussion with ten million people and don't really want to go here again but here goes.
Logic and Orion and Cubase do NOT have a 'sound' of their own. when you refer to this 'sound' you are referring to the default gain structure of an audio track playing back or the 'sound' of a synth given some patch or preset.
to confirm what I am saying run a spectral analyzer on the output of your sound card and see. load the same audio file in each host and bring the gains down until they are the same amplitude. compare the frequency spectra. no diff. see?
logic is 'louder' than other hosts, thats all...
and pro-tools is louder than logic so there...
and logic is mac only now and logic people are just so fucking religious fundamentalist like fucking christians or something so its just a loaded political game there...
thats all. |
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jon
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
17
Posts :
441
Posted : Apr 13, 2004 22:52
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I used to use Orion and enjoyed it. I think it is quite awkward to 'bounce things down to audio' in Orion, though, so it is better if you have a powerful CPU.
When I was using Orion on my old PIII 450 I used to be unable to listen to the tune in realtime _at all_ ! I would make small adjustments by guesswork, then export a little bit of audio and listen in Winamp to check it was ok.... ouch,
some of the built in generators are pretty nice.... I like the simple monobass a lot and miss it now I have left the world of Orion.... I have muon tau but it's not quite the same My fave acid line I wrote was with the Orion monobass through the amplitube....
It's weird - my sound improved _a lot_ when I moved to cubase, but I have no idea why. I am willing to believe it was psychological or else that it was easier to make a better mix with the cubase UI. Oh yeah - the built in EQ in Orion is not so great, but then neither is it great in cubase!
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ZilDoggo
Started Topics :
4
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663
Posted : Apr 14, 2004 20:48
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ocelot.,
since when does a spectrum analyzer represent every aspect of a sound????., how about phase?.,
on topic of the 'sound' of a sequencer,
fruityloops for instance definitely DOES have a sound of it's own., it's got various interpolation algorithms and stuff.,., so this will definitely influence the sound (i'm not saying negative but still it's a sound)
reason also definitely has a sound of it's own and it's in the mixer which seems to do some kind of multiband limiting .,., if you play more than one channel on it it will definitely have a 'sound'.,
logic also has a sound of it's own but it seems much more subtle to hear., nothing to do with level, i assure you,.,. i'm not sure what it is but it also kicks in when more than one track is mixed on it's mixer., maybe it's a saturation algorithm or something.,
also, the dithering algorithms (if any) can change the sound.,
also, handling of denormalisation during mixing of channels can change the sound.,.,
also, gain structures in the sequencer can change the sound (like in the case of fruity loops, which has 5 gain stages on every channel before the mixer and every stage adds a 1 bit error)
also, some sequencers have a limiter on the outputs, this also can change the sound.,,
also, up/downsampling and bit reduction/addition algorithms can change the sound.,.,
anyway, i'm not saying that one sequencer is better than the other., but i can definitely hear differences,.,.
what i personaly think is that you should choose a sequencer on the basis of what tools it offers and how it streamlines your production process because the sound will usually be good enough.,
grts,
aka., |
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Francis604
Started Topics :
4
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12
Posted : Apr 15, 2004 01:38
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ok imho first of all if any sequencer would PURELY sound different than other let me tell you that it would be on the table of all those marketing team ... i mean by this that i never heard about any sequencing company telling us that their sequencer have the best sound !!!!
when i read computer music or other professional magazine I NEVER SAW ANY COMMENTS LIKE
overall sound quality of any sequencer....
so ... |
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bholenath
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
103
Posts :
1137
Posted : Apr 20, 2004 12:55
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Orion ahs a nice interface.. very easy to play around on it.. if uve read the help carefully once...tho on a slowish computer it is very sluggish..and i mean very sluggish
....good fudge comes on slow!!! |
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ocelot
ocelot
Started Topics :
94
Posts :
783
Posted : Apr 26, 2004 20:49
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Quote:
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On 2004-04-14 20:48, ZilDoggo wrote:
ocelot.,
since when does a spectrum analyzer represent every aspect of a sound????., how about phase?.,
phase with respect to what? phase is a relationship between at least two things...
amplitude, frequency, phase
these three COVER ALL ASPECTS of sound thank you. amplitude- gain, like i originally said- logic is loud. woopdy do.
frequency- spectral analyzer
phase- there is one waveform- phase is irrelevant thank you.
on topic of the 'sound' of a sequencer,
fruityloops for instance definitely DOES have a sound of it's own., it's got various interpolation algorithms and stuff.,., so this will definitely influence the sound (i'm not saying negative but still it's a sound)
Fruity mixer employs same damn algorithms as logic, orion, etc... there may be a sound to the built in sound GENERATORS but if you test audio file playback in a rendered output context i contend there is ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE between hosts. if there is, thats a flaw. a host should not color sound. period.
reason also definitely has a sound of it's own and it's in the mixer which seems to do some kind of multiband limiting .,., if you play more than one channel on it it will definitely have a 'sound'.,
sure, and orion has an optional 'soft sat' algorithm. no telling what happens if you clip your hosts summing algorythm. i'm talking 0 db or less man. reasons sound are in its soft synths, fx, etc...
logic also has a sound of it's own but it seems much more subtle to hear., nothing to do with level, i assure you,.,. i'm not sure what it is but it also kicks in when more than one track is mixed on it's mixer., maybe it's a saturation algorithm or something.,
(maybe its you looking at their glossy UI and thinking its neato...?)
sure. no one i know saturates their mixer when making trance. dirty techno maybe...
this is all about what happens when you go over 0 db. what happens below is pretty standard across hosts...
also, the dithering algorithms (if any) can change the sound.,
??? when i render from 24-96khz source to the same on output where is the dithering occuring?
also, handling of denormalisation during mixing of channels can change the sound.,.,
dude- i would content that your cpu's libraries for handling denormaled numbers period would affect your sound more than this for sure...
also, gain structures in the sequencer can change the sound (like in the case of fruity loops, which has 5 gain stages on every channel before the mixer and every stage adds a 1 bit error)
ho hum. its all GAIN like i told you...
you aren't likely to find out what logic does unless you go work for them however...
also, some sequencers have a limiter on the outputs, this also can change the sound.,,
yeah and so will plugging a guitar fuzzbox between the soundcard and your monitor path. i would recommend avoiding any built in dynamics processing for sure. the question is whether logic 'sounds better' than other hosts. you answer it below and concur with me there so lets cut to the chase please...
also, up/downsampling and bit reduction/addition algorithms can change the sound.,.,
IF it is occurring. join the music-dsp list for extensive arguments on the subject of what to do in these situations. i usually use 24-96 audio files and render 24-96 and save any resampling or bit reduction for mastering in sound forge.
anyway, i'm not saying that one sequencer is better than the other., but i can definitely hear differences,.,.
and i contend that if you try to be fair about the test you will not hear a difference.
what i personaly think is that you should choose a sequencer on the basis of what tools it offers and how it streamlines your production process because the sound will usually be good enough.,
you are RIGHT. i agree with you.
grts,
aka.,
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ocelot
ocelot
Started Topics :
94
Posts :
783
Posted : Apr 26, 2004 20:55
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anyway,
i use orion. i love it. there are some bugs.
i like the process of using it. i find its UI simple.
i wouldn't worry about bullshit talk about
logic being the only "professional" choice.
i've been making trance music for 10 years.
i've used everything from Pro-Tools to a Studer D-950 digital board with DASH tape to logic to Orion and all the little gear kiddies can go find some other topic to wank on cause it all comes down to personal choice.
i DO find it so disturbing that the Logic Nazis insist on trying to take cheap shots at everyone else.
get a life and make some tunes instead.
thanks |
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EYB
Noized
Started Topics :
111
Posts :
2849
Posted : Apr 27, 2004 14:18
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i DO find it so disturbing that the Logic Nazis insist on trying to take cheap shots at everyone else.
get a life and make some tunes instead.
thanks
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LOL, "Logic Nazis" !!
BTW, ocelot i really like your Orion sound Signature |
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ZilDoggo
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
663
Posted : May 6, 2004 16:26
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phase with respect to what?
- phase with respect to time.,,
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phase is a relationship between at least two things...
- well, since time is always present you already have one part of the relation.,
if you say that a human ear cannot hear a phase change then i will personaly come over and cut your ears off!! .,
but the point was how the *mixer* sounds, wasnt it?.
if you test with only one sound then phase is mostly meaningless but when you start mixing phase becomes very important.,
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amplitude, frequency, phase
these three COVER ALL ASPECTS of sound thank you. amplitude- gain, like i originally said- logic is loud. woopdy do.
- loudness (especially preceived loudness) is something totaly different from amplitude thank you! .,
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frequency- spectral analyzer
phase- there is one waveform- phase is irrelevant thank you.
- my point is that you cannot judge a sound by looking only at a frequency plot.,
you cannot say that two sounds are the same because they have the same frequency spectrum.,
they may sound the same in isolation but this will change in two situations.,:
- if you start mixing them with other sounds (especially triggered by a tight sequencer)
- if it is played back loud enough for you to feel the physical effect of moving air.,
then phase will be important.,
another problem with frequency spectrum graphs is that your ears are sensitive to frequency/phase/amplitude changes that are so small that it's useless to measure/compare them with the usual fft algo's.,
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on topic of the 'sound' of a sequencer,
Fruity mixer employs same damn algorithms as logic, orion, etc... there may be a sound to the built in sound GENERATORS but if you test audio file playback in a rendered output context i contend there is ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE between hosts.
- ok, then maybe YOU know how to get a sample to play back at 0db in fruity loops.,.,
i've tried (and failed) several times to get 0db playback in fl studio.,
some fruity lovers ( you know who you are ) tried it and couldnt get it.,
but that's about level again.,.,
what i was talking about were the rendering algorithms which are more or less unique to fruity loop., i havent seen/heared them in other sequencers.,
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sure, and orion has an optional 'soft sat' algorithm. no telling what happens if you clip your hosts summing algorythm. i'm talking 0 db or less man. reasons sound are in its soft synths, fx, etc...
- the point is that reason has it built in and it starts working at some unknown level and does weird interchannel stuff.,
things change completely if you pump all your sounds directly to another rewire host and mix on that.,., you get a totaly different mix.,.
so, again, nothing to do with just level, there is some other stuff going on in the reason mixer.,
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logic also has a sound of it's own but it seems much more subtle to hear.,
(maybe its you looking at their glossy UI and thinking its neato...?)
- no, personaly i dont care about the glossyness of the ui,., otherwise i would have loved fruityloops
for me, the sound should be clean of 'special' features and the i look at the tools/streamline the package offers.,
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sure. no one i know saturates their mixer when making trance. dirty techno maybe...
this is all about what happens when you go over 0 db. what happens below is pretty standard across hosts...
- saturation on the main outs (if it is there) will start well before 0db.,., typically it is between -6db to -3db ., but as said before, some soft mixers behave very differently (like reason).,
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also, the dithering algorithms (if any) can change the sound.,
??? when i render from 24-96khz source to the same on output where is the dithering occuring?
- if you are using 24-96 then you propably are not going to hear it.,., that's true.,., but not everyone is working in 24-96. , (well, they SHOULD! , i hear you say )
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also, handling of denormalisation during mixing of channels can change the sound.,.,
dude- i would content that your cpu's libraries for handling denormaled numbers period would affect your sound more than this for sure...
- that's what i was talking about., the microcode handling it and how you should avoid it and stuff like that.,., it's a whole new minefield and not every company/programmer uses the best soluion to avoid the problems.,
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also, gain structures in the sequencer can change the sound (like in the case of fruity loops, which has 5 gain stages on every channel before the mixer and every stage adds a 1 bit error)
ho hum. its all GAIN like i told you...
you aren't likely to find out what logic does unless you go work for them however...
- gain is PART of the game.,
even if you don't know what's going on exactly you still can make a good judgement on it., best thing is of course measuring.,.,
i would realy love to do some measurements but i found that some sequencers (espesially some cheaper solutions do not have a reference level., that makes real testing almost impossible since you always will get some errors and these cloud other measurements.,,.
as i said before, a simple spectrum comparison is not a good measurement for these kinds of things because you are trying to measure complex interactions between channels.,.,
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also, some sequencers have a limiter on the outputs, this also can change the sound.,,
yeah and so will plugging a guitar fuzzbox between the soundcard and your monitor path. i would recommend avoiding any built in dynamics processing for sure. the question is whether logic 'sounds better' than other hosts. you answer it below and concur with me there so lets cut to the chase please...
- my point is that these 'toys' are hardwired into the mixing structure of some sequencers., most ppl dont realize that they are there in the first place.,
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also, up/downsampling and bit reduction/addition algorithms can change the sound.,.,
IF it is occurring. join the music-dsp list for extensive arguments on the subject of what to do in these situations. i usually use 24-96 audio files and render 24-96 and save any resampling or bit reduction for mastering in sound forge.
- some sequencers do real time resampling.,., so i would say this can matter a lot in some situations.,
of course, with 24-96 it's much much less of a problem but it sometimes can be a pain.,
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anyway, i'm not saying that one sequencer is better than the other., but i can definitely hear differences,.,.
and i contend that if you try to be fair about the test you will not hear a difference.
- if you use one sound then i would agree, you propably won't hear any difference.,, but with mixing, things like air and interaction start to emerge and with a mix of more than a few sounds you will realy start hearing the difference between some products.,
when i test i try to be as fair as i can be.,., i'm not making conclusions based on hearing.,
but often i find the differences because i hear it.,
then, when i do some measurements it turns out that i was hearing correctly.,
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what i personaly think is that you should choose a sequencer on the basis of what tools it offers and how it streamlines your production process because the sound will usually be good enough.,
you are RIGHT. i agree with you.
- thank you !
grts,
aka., |
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Te_nTe
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
29
Posts :
444
Posted : May 6, 2004 16:58
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Zildoggo - about the 0db in fruity u talked here - we had a conversation once - as u remember we were two - me and Superglue other forum member and we got same results - we can get 0db in fruity - so i still trying to get you on that point |
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