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Diference between mastering in hardware (tubes) or sofware.
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astrotec
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
193
Posted : Apr 29, 2007 14:45
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i'm not saying that you don't pay for quality because you do.i just think the plugins can get close to that specific sound anyway and the look ahead i am very impressed by. |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Apr 29, 2007 17:40
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I don't understand why there always has to be a war between two different concepts... mac pc logic cubase analog digital.. instead of just seing, that they have strengths and weaknesses.
Personally I have some analog gear, synth and processing, and I have it analog because I can achieve a sound, which I can't with plugins.
But still my setup is manly digital.
Sure, you can do EVERYTHING digital. And there are brilliant productions in ANY style of music, completely produced digitaly.
But, there are EVEN BETTER productions which used additionaly analog equipment.
the digital world never stops to prove and underline, that in certain domains high end analog gear still sounds better, by trying to emulate it!! Why would they bother to emulate, if the analog gear they are emulating weren't supreme?
Now the question is, do the emulations sound as good as the originals?
I can only say that I could compare an original LA2A to emulations and an original TB303 to an emulation.
The original, in my ears, sounded (blind) better in both cases.
But given the price difference, the difference is too small to justify the price.
And thats what emulations are for. To bring Analog HighEnd quality in our reach, nothing more, and it just proves the point that IN SOME AREAS (especially EQ and compression) analog gear sounds better. (beside the prestige effect of course, which also sometimes comes into play)
(listen to the 303 comparison and decide for yourself - http://www.subconsciousmind.ch/scm/html/workshops/303vs303.php )
On the other hand there are digital tools and toys, which can do things which Analog gear cant and never can. And I'm glad to use it, and everybody who walks away from it just because it's digital is an idiot.
I personally recently spent a lot of money for analog gear and I'm very happy with what it can do for me, but it certainly wasn't neccessairy and I could go on without it.
I love precognitive compressors, midi controlable anythings, weird sound destroying whatevers, granular synthesizing thingers, elastic audio makers, convoluting this with thats, additive synthesizing strangers and sample everythings.
Show me analog gear that can do that!!
So stop the war and start choosing this for that and that for this!
 Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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astrotec
Started Topics :
7
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193
Posted : Apr 29, 2007 17:43
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bravo well said.
its like a hand saw (wood tool) or an electric saw, both have their purposes. |
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shamantrixx
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
549
Posted : Apr 29, 2007 21:21
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On 2007-04-29 17:40, subconsciousmind wrote:
And there are brilliant productions in ANY style of music, completely produced digitaly.
But, there are EVEN BETTER productions which used additionaly analog equipment. |
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Is this a fact based on few thousands ABX blind tests or is it just a figure of speech? Most people with analog equipment will agree with you but when you spend some money it's to expect that you'll hear the difference.
Read the article from the previous page...
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On 2007-04-29 17:40, subconsciousmind wrote:
Why would they bother to emulate, if the analog gear they are emulating weren't supreme? |
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It's obvious. Because people needed some time to accept digital and soft tools. The best way to start selling them is to make an emulation of existing tools but for lower price than original.
Lately there is far less emulations because the most stupid thing in designing a software is to copy hardware with all limitations that hardware has. For example... try to make an analogue compressor with look ahead.
So emulations also don't prove anything. It's the matter of market psychology.
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Apr 29, 2007 23:11
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Shamantrixx. instead of reading articles I suggest you would use your ear sometimes.
for example here:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch/scm/html/workshops/303vs303.php
I don't care what anybody writes in any article, all that counts for me is what I hear, and I certainly have not the kind of amount of money to have any "psychological" factors playing in my game, when buying equipment.
There is only one thing that counts for me, and that is a direct blind A/B comparison.
the prestige factor for the emulations, I had already mentioned that myself, did you notice?. Its there, but it doesn't make all the game. do you have any backup on this?
Did YOU ever have the chance to compare and work with decent analog gear, especially EQ and compressor, or are you just quoting other peoples writings here?
If you did any direct A/B of emulation original I would like to know which, and what was your impression, also if you were aware of speakers and room accoustics etc.
(There is no point in comparing decent gear in a shitty room with shitty converters on shitty speakers. )
Anyway, if you had the chance to do some comparison, and are happy with what you have, its all fine for you, isn't it?
Stay with what you have, be happy, let others use what they want to use.
I just say it's never smart to close a door which doesn't mind to stay opened.
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
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1448
Posted : Apr 29, 2007 23:49
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In all fairness, that is just one emulation of one device. The developer of that plugin has some pretty weird ideas. (Like truncating 139.99 BPM to 139 BPM). So I wouldn't consider it the best of examples.
I think comparing something like the Korg Analogue collection to the original devices would be a much more legitimate case.
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I certainly have not the kind of amount of money to have any "psychological" factors playing in my game, when buying equipment.
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Well again in all fairness, it isn't just about money or even just about large sums of money. Any preconception will affect the way we hear things. That is just the way our brains function.
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Did YOU ever have the chance to compare and work with decent analog gear, especially EQ and compressor, or are you just quoting other peoples writings here?
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Digital EQs are very good these days. They can even do things that are impossible in the analogue domain. But dynamics (compression) and saturation/distortion, basicly anything that is non-linear is much harder to emulate in the digital domain.
UnderTow |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Apr 30, 2007 00:22
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ea, undertow, I know you are a little pissed of because the Audiorealism guy. Still, from sound point of view of sound its the best sounding 303 clone. it just demonstrates how difficult and impossible for countless companies it has been to emulate the 303.
So it perfectly proves the point. the bpm thing has nothing to do with the sound.
I think its quite arogant of you guys to just suggest that I can't hear what I hear, and just state, that its what I want to hear.
Quite a predjustice.
Besides, whats your point? I try the gear BEFORE I spend the money, and since it IS a lot of money I double.triple 100times check my perception before I go for it. Thats what I ment.
If you are willing to discuss things you really tried yourselfes and stop predjudging my abilities I join back, but like that it's no fun in it.
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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dija
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
48
Posts :
483
Posted : Apr 30, 2007 00:50
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I'd like to see analog replicate digital. 
I much prefer music that is at a lower volume. The way people push it often makes it sound flat. |
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Seppa
Started Topics :
8
Posts :
485
Posted : Apr 30, 2007 02:21
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Bravo! this is absolutly true. preconceptions leads to perceptions ... music and sound is all about perceptions therefore its the brain that is telling us that a noise sounds a certain way. that is why we can all desagree on certain perceptions. past experiences have a certain impact on our present perceptions. A certain piece of gear or a certain type of sound can sound good for some or bad for other..... or recall a certain feeling for some and none for others.....
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Seppa
Started Topics :
8
Posts :
485
Posted : Apr 30, 2007 02:33
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The use of Analog gear is not always about sound or only about sounds. I kind of like to have hands on a certain piece of equipment. It does change the way i interact with it and does have a huge impact on the production or the mix.
So again anyone has to choose best tools to work wether its digital or analog or both.....
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Seppa
Started Topics :
8
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485
Posted : Apr 30, 2007 02:51
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Its not a bad emulation and its actually not too bad for a 303 emulation, but I seriously think that the bassline pro sound thin and lack details compared to the real 303 according to the audiofile I hear.
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In all fairness, that is just one emulation of one device. The developer of that plugin has some pretty weird ideas. (Like truncating 139.99 BPM to 139 BPM). So I wouldn't consider it the best of examples.
I think comparing something like the Korg Analogue collection to the original devices would be a much more legitimate case.
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the korg legacy sound good, unfortunatly i just wonder how many of you here have an original polysis or an ms20 to compare it to the emulation.
From what i see an emulation is rightly called "emulation" and it can sound good but cannot sound exactly the same as the source it tries to reproduce.
Just look at the arturia ..compare the minimonsta to the minimoog of arturia they both sound good ( i do prefer the minimonsta but thats just my own perception) but they sound different and i bet they sound different from the original.
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shamantrixx
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
549
Posted : Apr 30, 2007 05:28
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On 2007-04-29 23:11, subconsciousmind wrote:
Shamantrixx. instead of reading articles I suggest you would use your ear sometimes. |
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Wow... what a clever reply
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On 2007-04-29 23:11, subconsciousmind wrote:
I don't care what anybody writes in any article... |
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2 bad. Reading stuff could fill many blanks in your knowledge.
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On 2007-04-29 23:11, subconsciousmind wrote:
all that counts for me is what I hear, and I certainly have not the kind of amount of money to have any "psychological" factors playing in my game, when buying equipment. |
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Try to read a bit about human hearing and perception. Obviously you don't know how it's working.
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On 2007-04-29 23:11, subconsciousmind wrote:
Did YOU ever have the chance to compare and work with decent analog gear, especially EQ and compressor, or are you just quoting other peoples writings here? |
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You really have to modify your attitude and reasoning.
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
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Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : Apr 30, 2007 09:38
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I don't know what the worry is, as long as you put a lowpassfilter no frequency will be aliased. Principally the debate over analog and digital equipment has been going on since there are digital instruments, the digital argument being that analog can never be as precise as digital, the analog argument being that with digital sound there is aliasing. True, there are some things we can only do with analog equipment, those however are limited and not used that often, on the other hand problems with the Niquist rate(aliasing) can easily be eliminated using a lowpass filter on 20 k (limit of human hearing) as long as you keep the sampling rate a bit more than 40 k (thus 44.1k) ...
So, in a way it depends how you look at it, both standpoints are right in their own way...
this said, I have used a Doepfer recently and procured a megafat bassline simply by taking a vco saw and a vca saw, chucking them into a mixer, then into a multi where I also put a saw lfo, the most simple form of a bassline. Few quick adjustments on the included envelope generator oh boy, really nice. And I would like to play around with a Moog Modular as well... however for fx sounds I generally prefer digital equipment...
I guess it really comes down to what kinds of sounds you want to create...
Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
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Boobytrip
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
39
Posts :
988
Posted : Apr 30, 2007 10:12
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[deleted post about the fact that i don't like it when shamantrixx shares his negativity] |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Apr 30, 2007 10:56
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the preconception perception arguments: they are part of it, I mentioned them myself. BUT: If you know about it, you can work against it. And thats what BLIND comparisons are for. a Blind comparison and a little attitude and selfcritisizm is all it need to get passed the point of "preconception".
Besides, if your attitude, like mine, is neither pro nor con analog or digital, it is already very difficult for preconception to take place. then only the money comes into play, and since I'm aware of that, and blind compare, I can sort that out...
It's good to mention it, but it's not impossible to get passed it.
@undertow, yea the 303 emulation sounds plastic, so we share the opinion, but its the BEST sounding all the same, which just proves my point. After almost 10 years of people trying to emulate a 303 this is the best we have got, and its still so obvious. I know the Korg emulation, it sounds great, I never had the chance to directly compare, though. But the thing is, before a directly compared the 303clone to its original I was much more convinced of it, so I can say that I'm perfectly happy with how the KorgEmu sounds, but it's still possible the originals would blow me more.
I think it's important to speak of personal experience in such a discussion. especially since there are as many articles, completely reasonable PRO Analog, Anti digital, Pro digital Anti digital around, the brightest heads in the audio world have discussed that matter till death. I've read so much of it. Bottom line for me was, TRY IT YOUR SELF.
we are not even scratching the surface of the technical side of this discussion here. When it comes to DSP processing algorythms, rounding of numbers etc. etc. there is so much you have to be dspprogrammer to understand and really discuss about it.
As far I'm concerned, I'm an ex electronicien, did a lot of programming but also built my own analog synths, therefore have a good insight into technique, BUT STILL I do not join the technical part of the analog digital discussion because I know, it's far to deep for me to really be able to argue.
I already said, that I only had the chance to directly compare two originals to it's emulations, LA2a and TB303 (in both cases to several emulations.)
Blind and in controlled environment, I liked the originals more.
Furthermore my own Analoggear. I compared a FATSO to several digital "warmifiers" it convinced me enough to spend the money for a FATSO. There was no need, no preconception, since I love digital stuff and just sold a TL-Audio C1 analog tube compressor because I found the digital UAD comps are better than the C1.
Just to tell you, I'm not just swallowing everything just because its analog, but carefully choose according to what I hear.
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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