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Designing music for the psychedelic experience
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psychowave
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Feb 2, 2011 20:53
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On 2011-02-02 17:40, Nomad Moon wrote:
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On 2011-02-02 17:10, aciduss wrote:
Thanks for the explanation Moki, somehow I understand a couple of things... glad u shared.
I remember one day I came home from a party, still was on LSD so I put a record on, if my memory is right it is called +/- from Ryoji Ikeda a japanese experimental guy...
At first glance it is just a mechanical like drone evolving little by little with some shocking breaks here and there... in fact it can be very disturbing but as high as I was just kept listening...
After a while my mind was taking over that sound playing through my big speakers and shaking the whole building with noisy glitching continuous and then I understood the trick.
Seems like after several minutes of listening to that apparently incoherent noises I got into a deep trance and it happened something really really weird, probably the most interesting sonic experience I've had.
I began to listen to complex and interesting melodies. The droning noises were still playing and the melodies were not really coming from the speakers, but I heard them inside my head. I just remember I was very very amazed by what was happening to me there lying on the floor just listening to wicked shit that produced melodies inside my head.
To this day I still wonder how he do that... because I was there with girlfriend and we shared the same strange musical experience.
What I came to conclude was that Ryoji's drones were noises in the whole spectrum BUT in those places where melody's notes were... to make more sense... it was like an inverse or negative audio experience where the artist was filling everything with noise but the melody, then brain was capable of generating the melody given the audio context.
I'm not sure if I was right... i haven't listened to that record again since it is not very pleasant to do when sober... but i have been intrigued ever since. How did he do that? he really messed with my mind and made it play music that he was not actually playing... quite amazing if you ask me... of course i got very strange looks by neighbors the following days hehe.
http://www.ryojiikeda.com/
Very well designed psy experience... i might listen to other of his shit soon.
Thanks.
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That happens on the dance floor also, when u suddenly start to connect all the dots and create melodies in your head the are'nt really there
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this is one of characteristics that's can describe psytrance for me, and are like a "target" when I produce:
many dots, and each one connect in a way...giving exclusive loops, in your all layers...for each people...
  www.psychowave.net |
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TimeTraveller
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Feb 2, 2011 21:28
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nah it is not convincing me.Maybe later.. but without clearness it is not enough.Give some explainaition maybe some formulas sth that you see 100% truth in it ,something logical.
Lets take planet earth.. what was there the frequency ? Im sorry I had doubts so I didnt saved it in my mind.
And how you get this number? Explain..
The only one logical number would be 86400 Hz.
It's a frequency that is out our hearing. Way to high.Bats could begin sth with it maybe but probably thats even for them too high.
The basics of frequencies tell us 1Hz = 1 Second ,so 1 turn of the earth would take 86400 seconds and this can be translated into 86400 Hz.This would make at least some logical sense.This number is explainable.And this frequency is useless for music.
And with other planets it should be useless as well if one finds even some frequency of them.
https://soundcloud.com/shivagarden |
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aciduss
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Feb 2, 2011 21:57
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Shiranui
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Feb 2, 2011 21:58
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TimeTraveller, that is the frequency at which it is currently rotating, not the frequency at which it resonates. |
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Shiranui
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Feb 2, 2011 21:59
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Those are frequencies of ELECTROMAGNETIC waves, not SOUND waves
the two things are entirely different and a frequency which is meaningful in one is entirely meaningless in the other. |
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TimeTraveller
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Feb 2, 2011 22:11
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On 2011-02-02 21:58, Shiranui wrote:
TimeTraveller, that is the frequency at which it is currently rotating, not the frequency at which it resonates.
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What do you mean with a frequency at wich it resonates at?
This frequency if it exists should be strong enough to push or move anyhow the whole planet and all frequencies we hear are a joke to resonate the earth ,frequencies got power - and the lows are most powerful,the higher it gets the less power they have.
There earth cannot resonate at some frequency.sth under 1 Hz would make sense and this is at any case not hearable.
And if there is a frequency at wich the earth resonates at than this frequency would not be the only one.
https://soundcloud.com/shivagarden |
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aciduss
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Feb 2, 2011 23:11
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The EM spectrum is the only one it exists and gives shape to reality.
The octave system is not just for music so you can transpose inaudible frequencies to audible one.
But of course I am just typing something that seems logical to me, not that this has any "magic" effect on the music itself... but i'm sure sonic experiments of this mater can be performed. |
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moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Feb 3, 2011 00:39
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i thought this topic was about how do you design sounds for the psychedelic experience and not how do you design sounds from the cosmic octave. 
p.s. there are certain things i consider so obvious that there is absolutely no question and need to discuss:). the logic of the cosmic octave is one of them.
it is arguable what effect you could create with cosmic sound (and again it is a question about the role of the experimentator in quantum fields, because absolutely the same sound could have no effect in the hands of one person and a very observative effect in the hand of another person).
but there is no question about the logic behind it. the model is so simple, it couldnt be more simple.
i ve heard all kinds of arguments against it, and never a good one. not even once. sometimes i heard desperate attempts like arguments about the irregular rotations of the stars (+ - few hours), or arguments about unprecise numbers or arguments about the anthropocentric view towards the sky but at the end of the day the logic behind it is unbeatable. or at least i am definitely out of the phase of persuading others:). the big question is what you can do with that and how can you measure what effect you caused.
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| The basics of frequencies tell us 1Hz = 1 Second ,so 1 turn of the earth would take 86400 seconds and this can be translated into 86400 Hz. |
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by the way 1 hz is one rotation per second, one turn per second........so if i rotate around you once every two seconds , i will have a frequency of 0,5hz in relationship to time traveller, which would be my rotating center, and not 2hz.
actually too simple to even need to be written, i would never ever imagine that the understanding of cosmic sound can depend on so small facts.
to me the really tricky thing is to understand the sun tone, because the sun does not rotate and you need to understand the whole theories of keppler and law of planetary motion ( because the sun tone comes from an imaginable planet rotating with the speed of light) and it is really complicated to grasp. but there can be a better formula anyway , because the constants of physics might not be so constant as we think. particularly gravity.
and tesla, actually there are so many trance musicians who are experts in physic, i am truely wondering why dont they do some electromagnetic magic, ahm investigation, instead.
and resonance is usually based on series of frequencies and never on only one.
the similarity between the spherics and the octave are the intervalls, which are observed to be almost the same. the spherics appear like an octave.
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TimeTraveller
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Feb 3, 2011 01:13
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yes this is correct like I said 1hz is 1 second.1000ms is 1khz this is the way I make my basslines even with a delay and not a synthesizer,cause you can hear it than.
And ok I give you the point with the rotation or cycle per second I was a bit too fast in my idea, but it goes a bit on nerves to see that stories and threads packed with 'magical' content and zero logic.
And it would make even less sense,since than this frequency is even less noticalbe,and still this is the only one we can take into any consideration of a frequency belonging to a planet.
You have not answered my questions btw but I expected it to be so.
And if there is no explanation about cosmic octave then it has absolutely no credible value.Or no value.
There are a lot of people who believes in ufos and aliens ,stuff without any prooves,and it is fine,but it is out of my interest.The cosmic octave is so funny I would even not dare to ask a real music scientist if this is true.
If you can explain it than make sense and please don't hesitate with it,Id glad to see the sense in it but there is no.Things without prooves of their existence is not enough for me to believe in them.
Apart of spirituality but this has for me or could have a completely different meaning than a spiritual one if there would really be some sense in it.
This is a point for me where this discussion is a time waste for me.
Good that I find it out - even if only for me
But Im sure many others see it as I do.
Still if you feel strong enough to give a solid scientific link from some serious page,or a formula Id be glad to see it.
https://soundcloud.com/shivagarden |
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moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Feb 3, 2011 02:37
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wow , i knew i was now gonna be having too much memories of 1,5 year old discussions and old times. flashback. not good. )) but i will be gone in a second. .
btw the only reason i dont write formulas again and again is that i already did it on my website and certainly more than once in isratrance:)
btw i would be very happy to see you in this psychedelic museum , i was explaining about, in case it starts this summer in berlin. i promise to show you every detail of every formula available. and i promise to invite the best referents to explain to you where science and non science meet.
yes, i will give you a formula fast. even two - first the common one for any rotating body, planet or micro element and then for the sun tone.
you have the 86400 seconds for 24 hours.
1/84000 is the basic frequency corresponding to a day on earth. ( but earth can have sidereal tones, which indicate the daily rotation of the firmament 23 hours and 56 min or earth year which is the rotation around the sun, or even platonic years which is the shift of the axis and takes 25920 years)
in the 25th octave ( which is 33 554 432 th partial note of a solar day) you have 388, 36 hz which is approximately 435 hz and temperate tuning. you use the factor 1. 059 463 which is a good known factor coming from 12 semitones und the number 2 for an octave with a double frequency ( it is the 12 radical of 2). with that factor you come to 435,92 hz.
wow you know. i was beginning to write so much about the cosmic tone of the sun and keppler and the law of planetary motion but i just agree completely with you that it is a waste of time and it is good to know this.
i just dont feel good to persuade.
i just answered the question in the topic and i said what i am doing and i guess i will never do it in big circles anyway but only face to face so it is not an isratrance topic anyway.
about a formul, i would find it nicer to send you the books with formulas for a couple of days than to tell you what is written there. or i send you my own notes on my ideas. it is easier.
my intuition is not good about starting the persuasion trip in isratrance for a second time.
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Mike A
Subra
Started Topics :
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Posted : Feb 3, 2011 10:37
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wtf is going on here?
First of all - basic math.
Hz is not 1 second, Hz is 1/sec.
Meaning:
Something which has a period of 2 seconds, rotates at 0.5Hz.
Something which has a period of 4 seconds, rotates at 0.25Hz.
Something which has a period of half a second, rotates at 2Hz.
Higher frequency - less time to rotate.
Of course, it doesn't have to be rotation. It can be any periodical motion (whether mechanical such as a planet rotating or a string) or other (for example light waves etc).
Now, about frequencies of planets. It has nothing to do with musicality! Just because I take the 30 something octaveof a planet's resonant frequency (of something, rotation or radiation or whatever) and it happens to be a note (F for example, dunno) doesn't mean it has any special metaphysical meaning. The note F is widely used in music and no one has shit his pants yet. Besides, what is F? It could be according to the standard 440Hz tuning but could be out of tune in some other tuning.
I take my dog out and he pees on a tree every day. So his peeing has a frequency of 0.0000116Hz. Everything can be described in terms of frequencies, but does it has any musical meaning? Probably not.
So instead of finding some special frequency of Mars of Venus or distant galaxies or whatever, try to use proper musical knowledge. It will sound better. Trust me, if there are any special freqs out there - they would have already been found. Just play a sweep from 20hz to 20khz, covering all of your hearing spectrum. See? Nothing special happened.
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TimeTraveller
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Feb 3, 2011 11:23
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about the hertz we had it now full.I think my own post was enough,I took it the other way round Because I was too fast with my idea.
No need to write examples,just the other way round yes in that earth example it is than 1/864000 the other way round Like i told it.
The idea was the way.The failure was because of the heated speed of thaughts,I thaught I have clearified it,I think maybe not clear enough for you guys
All in all I absolutely agree with you Mike A.And Moki yess this discussion is old and absolutely uselesss.It is nonsense for music.Peace
https://soundcloud.com/shivagarden |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
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5292
Posted : Feb 3, 2011 13:03
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On 2011-02-02 15:14, Moki.Time.Wave.Zero wrote:
...( i will answer in a sec the question of disco hooligans about posting sound and why i think ten times before i would post a sound in isratrance)...
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I wish you thought 10 times before posting all the tripe you are so certain of, as well.
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On 2011-02-02 15:14, Moki.Time.Wave.Zero wrote:
- i am sure that the sound would be exactly as shit as my words are for all people who find i speak bollock:). it is neurolinguistic anchor that is called prejudice in common english |
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It's obvious that your english is not that good.
I wrote what you posted first, than I said its all bollocks. That's not prejudice, as I already have first hand experience from your bollocking and do not assume something. Its not prejudice, its experience.
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On 2011-02-02 15:14, Moki.Time.Wave.Zero wrote:
- i am just kind of afraid that too much negative reaction if i post the sound could affect my own neurolinguistic practise and anchor me to a point that i stop doing it, which is something very similar to what happened to my video website.
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How do you expect anyone to believe in you if you don't believe in your yourself?
Don't be a whiny bitch, grow a thick skin and take it like a (wo)man. I have had people calling my music shit in the past. And although it was, I did not let them affect my lust for making it.
Having people react negatively to your music is a good learning process that keeps your feet on the ground. So stop hiding behind your finger. If you're going to post all this stuff about your amazing theory behind the amazing music you're making, post a clip, or leave the cosmic theories, out.
You've said last year (or was it two) you were going to post this music that you talked so much about, as it was created by some higher being for higher beings that understand it, and when people called you, you kept mouthing off bollocks and ended up insulting people, then acted all hurt and then kindly fucked off the production forum.
You are free to believe in anything it is you like. I do to. For example I have written many tunes at Fsharp which someone told me it was Mars' resonant frequency. I did not look much further into it much. It apeealed to me. I just did because it gave me that little placebo effect that I liked flirting with when making tunes on some good charas in the studio. The difference is that I know it is my own placebo effect and don't try to pass it as fact to people, on the basis that it is a fact only if the listener knows what they are doing...which is were your rubbish comes in.
Still waiting to hear the music you've been making, I am actually intrigued to hear it, after all if you are still not full shit and you are kind enough to enlighten me with huge posts, you'd be at least kind enough to post some of this DNA healing and of other good sorts, amazing music.
Peace out.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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1931
Posted : Feb 3, 2011 18:50
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as i already announced, the only place where i am gonna be presenting this audio visual trip, i described on the last page, will be the psychedelic museum that we are gonna prepare for a few days in berlin. it will be done in a scientifical environment with scientists that support it (already). and there are fortunately quite a few of them. i am not gonna be posting any sound here before that.
btw i do believe in myself, i just dont expect others to do it anymore. especially the trancers. you remember this topic about the cosmic octave like ann act of unsulting the production forum and i remember it in a totally different way as a true legend about the last days of trance culture. it had the greatest impact on my life among all isratrance interractions. like being among a wolf pack fighting brutally for their territory. i will never forget this topic.
because i understand how wrong the partys were for my intention. yesterday i came in isratrance and this topic just appeared so brilliant in my eyes because i am right now looking for the artists to book for the museum. some cosmic sound specialists will be definitely in there, but who knows, just the topic sounded very intruiging to me. but it is same old story.
btw time traveller a picture with hamburg in your avatar would look so nice and appropriate:). i am happy that the cultural senat in berlin does not think like you. actually i am truely happy that i will try to attract totally different people for this event.
and now i was sitting for 15 minutes thinking what could i write and how could i tell you what i feel, because it is so much and it feels so desperately speechless and inexpressible.
it is not so important how small is the circle. this weekend i was visiting some guys who were doing an experiment with a plant, connecting its leaves to an electromagnetic sensor and creating sound out of the plant for an exhibition. only drone experimental sound. and btw it would never have the same impact on a cd like iit had in the exhibistion with its context. the whole place was empty. only the right people were there. which is exactly what i dream for too. and this is only possible with a financial help from the senat. otherwise it would never happen.
of course i compassionately realize that this has nothing to do with music and the interest ends where science ends, especially if science has not even entered the house door at its most basic definitions. which is exactly what made my crazy in the last cosmic octave thread. you wanna be scientists, then respect science at least in its basics, it cannot be so difficult. no, it obviously can.
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aciduss
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Feb 3, 2011 19:15
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I like stuff that is hard to believe and difficult to digest by the logical analytical mind.
It challenges paradigms and that is one of the effects i love of the psychedelic experience on myself.
I find your written ideas very interesting Moki, sorry you feel bad exposing them in this place.
I know it can be exhausting when swimming against current and just trying to explain stuff that is hardly being explored by traditional science.
It is also easy to fall into blind beliefs and foolish thoughts but, even though your ideas are a little confusing for some of us I think you have very noticeable energy on them and that gives them enough weight for me, at least to take them in consideration before rejecting concepts that are weird and contrasting with most here on isratrance.
Good luck with your project, hope you keep experimenting and creating audiovisual material based on your personal projections.
I agree you shouldn't waste more of your attention on this thread, you have given enough, and I count your words among the most valuable in this thread.
Psytrance should be (from my perspective) much more oriented to connect dancers with their inner selves and cause a true psychedelic effect on the listeners... it can be understood why it fails to this when many producers seem so away from their Higher Selves and much more close to grounded subjects they can easily understand.
To everybody else: I'm not specifically judging any of you, but I do think the lack of true psychedelic intention on this genre production is one of the causes it is a little stuck on its particular evolution line.
Psytrance is a sonic sacrament, a way to trance the mind into The One.
A way to mix sound design and music to enhance one's consciousness, sadly for many is just music to get fucked up and dance because to party is all we need in this agonizing world.
Peace.
PS. DH & Mike: you project so much rage to Moki's way of seeing life just because you can't see it the same way. |
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