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DAW sound engine
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Suloo
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Mar 18, 2009 22:49
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~d2~
Inactive User
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Posted : Mar 19, 2009 01:41
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Sounded the same to me. 
What is interesting is that they have identical peak and RMS attributes.
What is even more interesting is that the percussion intro nulls perfectly.
BUT... after about 13 seconds they go out of sync by 3 samples!!!!!!!
SO I did a little edit and trimmed off the intro and lined them up perfectly. Full null with one of the tracks phase flipped.
x-rayz you cheeky little monkey 
Then after about another 2 seconds they go out of sync again.!!! |
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x-rayz
IsraTrance Junior Member
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576
Posted : Mar 19, 2009 09:29
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About 64 bit summing, dunno about that but I know Live doesn't support 64 bit processors..
About loops, its 4 audio loops, one after another, (theyre same loops, and same procedure used in both programs) they should be in sync cause they were set bar after a bar in ableton and I used events quantize in nuendo.. Its nice to know that RMS in both programs didnt affect original file..
I doubt, but maybe the loops arent cut well.. If both loops are out of sync than thats it.. I dunno if sync has effect on difference..
I heard exactly what Zork heard and I also thought Im fooling myself, but I checked few times and theres no doubt, first one even has better panorama detail.. You should check on headphones..
 http://www.facebook.com/xrayzproductions
http://www.myspace.com/xrayzproductions |
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~d2~
Inactive User
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Posted : Mar 19, 2009 11:13
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If it nulls in a phase flip then there is no difference. This suggests it is in your mind.
Download Winabx and test to see if you can really here a difference
http://www.kikeg.arrakis.es/winabx/
4 loops one after each other? how many tracks per loop?
Also even the files are different lengths. Something is not right with the test if the file lengths are different. |
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x-rayz
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Mar 19, 2009 12:59
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its just one audio track, theres one loop, and after it second, than third and fourth.. every loop is fitted to the end of the previous so there should be no timing differences.. Same thing is done in both programs.. I put 4 different loops so u can have variation, focus on second loop in Loop1.wav and in the breakdown there is obvious difference in colour of the sound and some slight difference in panorama.. It was 0:43 for both loops when I checked..
Can u explain a bit more about phase flip and does it happen in the both loops?
Cause I dont get how could sync affect the sound.. Sync problem could only appear somewhere between those 4 loops used if they weren't fitted on the end of the previous loop, but Im certain they are.. Other thing could be that factory loops have sync problem right from start but I also doubt that cause these are high quality loops..
http://www.facebook.com/xrayzproductions
http://www.myspace.com/xrayzproductions |
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~d2~
Inactive User
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Posted : Mar 19, 2009 15:15
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load both files into the same DAW. YOu will notice that one is slightly longer than the other. You will need to zoom in to see it.
Reverse the phase on one of the tracks and play both together. This will cancel out completely for the first 13 seconds (the first loop). This means that the files are identical. What ever you are hearing is in your mind.
The phase reverse switch may be on the channel. In Protools I have to insert a trim tool which has a phase reversal option. Fortunately in doesn't induce any plug-in delay. If it did then I would plug one in on both tracks.
I am not sure why there are issues with your files. It may just be as simply how the DAWs deal with butting the files together.
You could do each loop separately. In fact if you really want to get to the bottom of this then that is what I suggest you do.
If they cancel each other out then there is not difference between the files. The mind is a funny thing. If the files null and you think you can hear a difference it means that all the science that we currently have and know in relation to sound and digital audio and maths is wrong!!!!
I think everyone, at some stages, gets tricked by their own mind when it comes to this kinda thing. It has happened to me lots of times!!!
The Winabx program has become a very useful tool for me. It soon reveals to you the tricks your mind can play. |
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x-rayz
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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576
Posted : Mar 19, 2009 16:42
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ah, phase cancellation, why didn't u said that.. Yeah it should be completely silent if they're identical.. And if first loop ends at 13 second than its something with sticking the files together..
Ill try phase cancellation test tonight and see how it goes.. Ill also repeat the test with single loop..
In my opinion, I was convinced from the start that all DAWs sound the same, and since I know how mind and ears and all that hardware equipment can be tricky I was convinced my mind is playing tricks on me.. Mostly cause of the fact that I prefer ableton more than steinberg.. So I was aware of that from the start..
But as you could see its not only my mind in equation, Zork also heard the exact thing that I did hear.. Whats more interesting is that he told first loop is better and he thought first loop is nuendo, not ableton, now Im guessing he uses cubase and probably he likes it better like I do ableton and his mind was affecting the answer.. But since, in reality, he picked wrong one, loop from ableton and not nuendo, thats when I started to believe that actually ableton is better..
Finally, in some weird case if Zork and I really hear the difference, I wouldn't be so hard and say all science and math related to sound is wrong, just that science and math cant reach some subtle forms of sound.. And actually, if we could repeat this test and it would show again same results it would be scientific discovery implying that we need better instruments that arent available till now, besides our ears.. And to be honest I trust more 2 pairs of ears than one spectrum analyzer cause theres no better analyzer than human ear, analyzers are modelled on human ears, like cameras are modeled on eye principles, so they are all worse than original.. And when u take into account how imperfect original is, u can just think how unperfect copy(analyzer) is..
I could go that far and saying since u rely on phase cancellation and analyzers and that is actually your mind that tricked you but Im already too far out 
http://www.facebook.com/xrayzproductions
http://www.myspace.com/xrayzproductions |
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~d2~
Inactive User
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Posted : Mar 19, 2009 19:17
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If they cancel out with what is known as a null test then they are identical and there is no difference to hear. There is no escaping that. As far as science can't reach some subtle forms, its the other way round. We can increase resolution but can our hearing system hear beyond a certain threshold?
The Winabx test program is your best bet for checking for yourself if you can really hear a difference. I will be using it for to help with all my new purchases (where applicable).
I have used it to demonstrate to several friends that they can't actually hear the differences that they claim on several converters and mic pres. Before I discover Winabx we would just argue for months over it. One test can give closure on an issue and let you move on to more important things. |
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x-rayz
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Mar 19, 2009 19:27
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~d2~
Inactive User
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Posted : Mar 19, 2009 19:39
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I dont know if it is the same for every DAW. And to be honest I don't care. No one has been able to demonstrate yet, that there is a difference. There are so many other things that have an impact on sound that are more worthy of attention.
I have a Digi 002 rack at home. I know for the money I could have got a better interface with better mic pres and converters. But for me using Protools was more important as I like the workflow and its features. I would never personally mix a track in Ableton, but that is because of the design and functionality, not the sound.
Can you do the second loop again? I got it to sync and cancel for 2 seconds and then it went out!!!! Really weird!!!!! |
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x-rayz
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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Posted : Mar 19, 2009 20:32
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~d2~
Inactive User
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Posted : Mar 19, 2009 20:56
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yeah the loop that comes after the drums.
Do you know the time code for each loops start point? |
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x-rayz
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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576
Posted : Mar 19, 2009 21:20
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x-rayz
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
576
Posted : Mar 19, 2009 22:20
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~d2~
Inactive User
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Posted : Mar 19, 2009 22:31
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No worries.
Not very many people gave feedback. I think many people don't like to give feedback publicly.
It is good experience though. This reminds me of using EQ with a graphical display. I still feel more confident with them even though I know it is better to train your ears to do it with out the visual aid.
There is a thread in DJ section about wav vs 320kbps mp3. I am sure I can hear the difference, though some people claim there have been many tests that prove that people can't tell. I think it might be time to test myself with Winabx to see if I can really tell a difference. |
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