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cubase vs. ableton live
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Sep 25, 2013 23:04
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OK, you are conflating terms.
Ableton's Audio Engine is not the same as Ableton's Warp Engine or System or however you want to call it.
I think that ableton's different stretching algorithms are nice as long as you understand how to use them properly. If you want ultra clean stretching or proper repitching of notes etc...you can use melodyne
But yeah, saying 'abletons audio engine sucks' is a completely different subject from 'ableton's timestretching algorithms suck'
  If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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ThiagoNAKA
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Sep 25, 2013 23:10
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That´s the point I´m trying to get willsanquil. Sounds that Vermeee are misunderstanding the warp and audio engines.
My question avout d/a converter should be like: does a track sounds the SAME on DAW´s? I´m not talking about phase cancellation, but audio monitoring.
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Vermeee
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Sep 25, 2013 23:35
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well considerin you WILL be warping if you are doin mixdown in ableton you will be affectin the output .... so the algorithms of the stretching settings can be seen as part of the audio engine....
specialy because i cant as exemple put a track in ableton and work with it non warped unless i want to use it only as i music player which s not the situation for none of here.
and SMS : IF YOU WARP IT no it wont sound the same...even if u do the best warpin setting ... ( in case of full tracks its repitch and even if you are syncing in the exactly same bpm and sample rate)
and you WILL be warping to sync it in time unless you only to use ableton live as a MUSIC PLAYER which s not the case of none in here.
but as i said before not something that would be considered bad...BUT if you do focus for transparency ableton s not transparent.
http://soundcloud.com/bgos |
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Sep 26, 2013 00:07
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you are confusing the hell out of me.
mixdown?
working with a track that's non warped?
You are going all over the place.
Mixdown: if you are exporting tracks from another DAW into ableton for mixdown...you don't need to warp them. at all. just export your stems, put them in different audio channels and boom...you can work with them...
if you're talking about mixdown in a track that has been done in ableton...the only way you could screw up the 'transparency' of your stems with the warping/stretching algos or whatnot is if you made edits and consolidated clips together over and over using Complex or something that's not Repitch
If you warp something (properly, by adding 1 yellow marker only) and play it back at its original tempo, it will not sound fucked up.
If you play it at a different tempo than its original there are a number of algorithms that can be used depending on the type of source material - for instance, 1/16th beats for dance music has always sounded great for me.
This discussion isn't going anywhere. You are saying, in a roundabout and unclear way, that you don't like the way that ableton does timestretching.
NO timestretching is completely transparent - so saying that ableton's audio engine sucks or that its not transparent doesn't really mean anything.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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SISMIC
Sismic
Started Topics :
14
Posts :
82
Posted : Sep 26, 2013 01:03
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Quote:
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On 2013-09-26 00:07, willsanquil wrote:
you are confusing the hell out of me.
mixdown?
working with a track that's non warped?
You are going all over the place.
Mixdown: if you are exporting tracks from another DAW into ableton for mixdown...you don't need to warp them. at all. just export your stems, put them in different audio channels and boom...you can work with them...
if you're talking about mixdown in a track that has been done in ableton...the only way you could screw up the 'transparency' of your stems with the warping/stretching algos or whatnot is if you made edits and consolidated clips together over and over using Complex or something that's not Repitch
If you warp something (properly, by adding 1 yellow marker only) and play it back at its original tempo, it will not sound fucked up.
If you play it at a different tempo than its original there are a number of algorithms that can be used depending on the type of source material - for instance, 1/16th beats for dance music has always sounded great for me.
This discussion isn't going anywhere. You are saying, in a roundabout and unclear way, that you don't like the way that ableton does timestretching.
NO timestretching is completely transparent - so saying that ableton's audio engine sucks or that its not transparent doesn't really mean anything.
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im with you Willsanquil, and if you want transparency, and i noticed too, limit the number of out-of-time-sampled-loops, make your own loops at your song/tempo, optimize your cpu heavy plugins to better and lighter ones, split your songs in multiple files if your pc is at it's cpu limit(file bassline, sinths and intro for ex.)and use midi as more as possible, you learn a lot the arrangement, you can work with midi SHORT samples and samplers to make your own loops and realtime intelligent fx chains off course, after this you dont' need to sample because you create your basic unique sound.
http://soundcloud.com/sismic-stuff |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
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5292
Posted : Sep 26, 2013 11:05
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Quote:
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On 2013-09-25 19:32, Vermeee wrote:
Quote:
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On 2013-09-25 10:31, Nectarios wrote:
Hasn't it been already proven that all DAWs just add numbers and that the output is the same?
I haven't used Cubase since Cubase VST and I don't use Ableton, but a few years ago a link was posted on some site with proper tests and that all DAWs just do mathematical calculations....i.e. adding 1+1 equaled 2 in all DAWs.
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so why dont you try for yourself instead of holdin your arguments based on "a maybe one day i read that all the outputs sound the same" this doesnt seem to be very scientifical for someone so scientifical...not considerin that if you are usin as arguments forums and articles of internet... in the same ocean you will find tons talkin bout how audio engine sounded different from other daws and there s even a official post from ableton in the days of the version 7 which they were assumin they need some revisit in the audio engine but then it was never talked again.
for me i clearly hear my audio changin doesnt matter if it s my shit recorded material from my nord or mastered tracks in wav that i use for djing.....
per exemple.... the best settings for dj setin s to use REPITCH but then you loose a little of the air of the track...
for twisted sounds you d be usin TEXTURE but then you are loosin transient of the audio...
etc etc
for percusive stuffs like drums etc you best be usin BEATS but then any little process u cause in this audio it ll get clicks
its like you always have to sacrifice something to make other in evidence....
lets not even consider HOW STUPID is to have to adjust logarith settings for all the audio otherwise it ll be soundin "WRONG".
in other daws you have much more freedom for the audio manipulation without degradation of the source.
anyway not that it worth your time ...
so to sumup
ABLETON AUDIO ENGINE SUXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
ABLETON SESSION VIEW ROCKSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
sorry but there s no perfect software.
and dont fuckin ask me the link of the post from ableton talkin bout the revision of the audio engine....
you can find it in google googlin people complainin the shities of it.
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Right,
So you are not actually talking about the summing, but the way Ableton processes sounds.
Which is fair enough.
I don't use Ableton, tried it once, did not like it.
I have heard about great names saying that they do not like the "sound" of Ableton. Eat Static, Aphid Moon are two of them.
I am open to the possibility that Ableton degrades the sound too much in the way it handles audio when warping, but the summing is the same in all DAWs.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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knocz
Moderator
Started Topics :
40
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1151
Posted : Sep 26, 2013 12:23
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Cmon mans, an audio engine is a little bit of code responsible for sample rate conversion and sound card buffer population. Basically it makes sure the sound card always has audio to play (so there isn't buffer overruns), and that the pcm sound is feed into the sound card in the right sample rate / bit rate.
And, since Ableton is made for real-time audio, it's sound engine is really awesome, because it really does it's job - particularly good when combined with a great sound card.
So, comparing the sound engines, load a sample audio file in both DAW's, and record their output without any sample manipulation: that way we can actually get a clean idea over the sound engines artifacts, and by inverting the phase we can check the actual differences.
However, if the argument is that some particular functionality can degrade the sound, well i guaranty you I can do stuff in cubase that can also degrade the sound - everything must be used right. And in the end, it's what you do with it that counts!
Super Banana Sauce http://www.soundcloud.com/knocz |
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TimeTraveller
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Sep 26, 2013 12:35
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sure. But it really is not a mystery that f.e. you would never export any work of yours in e.g. Reason. NEver. YOu would always do it via rewire. And why? Because of this issue and reasons output, bus, summing etc is not the same, or it is not the same what comes out.
And there was already a proove with phase cancellation which has harmonics in the results and is not cancelled out - in this respect of Ableton /I personaly like it just saying clear unstoned infos/
Also any of the guys from Ableton, Logic or Steinberg can tell you that it is simple and logical, and all of them got another way of algorithms which end up at the end in not the exact sound colour of the same wave.
However, don't have the time to get for probably ansers in the next time and actually not an interest to repete the same. I have my prooves via Steinberg and SAE and for me it makes big sense and is clear and is really simple to get it, not really complicated. Any guy that code seriously and has a knowledge about this issue will answer you that.peace I'm out for vacation 
https://soundcloud.com/shivagarden |
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Vermeee
IsraTrance Full Member
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108
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Posted : Sep 26, 2013 21:52
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Quote:
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On 2013-09-26 12:23, knocz wrote:
Cmon mans, an audio engine is a little bit of code responsible for sample rate conversion and sound card buffer population. Basically it makes sure the sound card always has audio to play (so there isn't buffer overruns), and that the pcm sound is feed into the sound card in the right sample rate / bit rate.
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just because a daw puts real time audio ( you record what you were listening ) this doesnt mean the audio engine s superior or inferior . this s only the option they decided to folllow to deal with latency specialy because of the SESSION VIEW IMPLAMENTATION. and thats why they have the name of NOTABLE LIVE..... and for a drummer as exemple this s horrible..... a drummer wants it recorded what he s playin...with no automatic latency compesation otherwise it would screw everything...( yes ableton s automaticly compaseting latency even if u not choose to coz it s made to have perfect audio sync with the timegrid)
so its just a matter of choice and what you do....
also ableton real time thing could be pretty genious if they had realy follow that route... but they are already in version 9 and they never fixed the timin issue that ableton s openly known to have with external midi, in a software that was supposed to have perfect sync time( NOTABLE LIVE). Its like they are sayin people who use external gear to go fuck off and start usin only VSTs. or just change daw. but sadly there s no other software with the session view implementation ( till bitwig gets released )
BUT obviously if u use only VST or maybe one or 2 external synth which u dont even use it live but only for record some loops , you will NEVER notice those timing problems... BUT try to do a live jammin project with external gears , and plugins everything in sync and bein triggered in real time. and then try to record it...and go have a check into your external gear recorded materials to have a choke in the jittering you got.....even with the latency in perfect timing...
so yea...this real time audio bullshit s no excuse to justify the greatness of ableton when they didnt even fix the hardware timin issue....unless of course as i said before.. u are usin only vsts or maybe a few external gear for recording loops that s not realy necessary to be in perfect time with the project coz you will be audio editing after it. you wont keep things in midi for the external gear.
but pls LETS STOP BEIN A FUCKIN KIDO and generalize stuffs like a cryin babyi.... OWWWWWW YOU ARE SAYIN ABLEON S A BAD SOFTWARE IT CANT MAKE PROFESSIONAL STUFF BUT CANT YOU SEE MANY PROFESSIONALS USE ABLETON LIVE AND BLA BLA BLA
we are discusin bout SMALL TECNIICAL FINE DETAILS ABOUT PROFESSIONAL SOFTWARES WHICH ARE ALL CAPABLE OF BEIN PROFESSIONAL but each of them has their focus so its impossible for them to be equal...otherwise it would not need to have concorrencia. but to be honest ableton COULD be perfect...but its so far from being...specialy because most of their updates are based to atract NEW USERS and not make things completly stable.......... the best exemple of it ?
last ableton live update . 9.1
major updates :
dual screen support and melodic step sequencer in push....
the whole ableton live users had been cryin out loud to the addition of multi screen ( not even dual haha ) but they always ignored it. many users would not use ableton live for that special reason coz coz for some people get stuck into one view could be realy no intuitive for the working process...
so soon bitwig will be releasin and one of their caracteristic is to have multi screen support... ( for people who dont know what bitwig is... it is a software identical to ableton made by some people from the old group of ableton live... their focus s to give you a STABLE and focused on QUALITY ableton live this can be all advertisiment bull shit but lets see )
so ableton quickly added the dual screen support so maybe they would hold a few users from leavin ableton...
step melodic sequence in push ? who the fuck needs it besides people who owns push ? this should be a update to PUSH not ableton.... specialy because melodic step sequence could be achieved before with any major ableton controller with custom scripts like apc 40 , launch control or if u were smart enough you could even create yours... they even gave a funky name to step sequence out of beats.... MELODIC step sequence lol
but they need to make advertisement bou that fuckin expensive control that they are selling with their software....
marketisin focus ... not quality.
http://soundcloud.com/bgos |
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Agorit
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114
Posted : Sep 27, 2013 04:16
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PSeuDoNyM
IsraTrance Junior Member
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62
Posted : Sep 27, 2013 15:00
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[/quote]
Nectarios wrote:
Right,
So you are not actually talking about the summing, but the way Ableton processes sounds.
Which is fair enough.
I don't use Ableton, tried it once, did not like it.
I have heard about great names saying that they do not like the "sound" of Ableton. Eat Static, Aphid Moon are two of them.
I am open to the possibility that Ableton degrades the sound too much in the way it handles audio when warping, but the summing is the same in all DAWs.
[/quote]
Exactly, .
Just because all DAWs share the same in and out math.. Does not mean they all sound the same.
If all you do is record the input's and use no processing from the DAW.
Each of the following mixing examples will have it's own unique sound.
IE: Motorola ,Sharc or even out optical to some nice D/A's through an analog or Digital desk back into nice A/D's .. ...
That uniqueness should be the same no matter which DAW was used for recording.
Not until you start using the DAW for more then I/O, should it change anything of the sound.
https://soundcloud.com/psypseudonym |
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Sep 27, 2013 16:53
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I use ableton with external hardware. It works great.
I am sorry that the ableton developers snuck into your house and put their dicks in your ear vermee. I'm sure if that happened to me I would be just as ranty as you are.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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Vermeee
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Sep 27, 2013 21:17
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wirakocha
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Sep 29, 2013 00:55
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supergroover
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Sep 29, 2013 09:56
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On 2013-09-29 00:55, wirakocha wrote:
All the time reading the same bullshit about daws, it doesn't mind what daw do you use ,more important is your creativity,audio knowledge,audio background...
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Exactly. Even IF it made a difference. It wouldnt be more than 1% of the total sound. All the other bits are so much more important!
soundcloud.com/supergroover |
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