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Cubase in Mac vs Logic 8.0.1/Performance and audio interface
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ecsmix
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Apr 19, 2008 08:00:12
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I recently decided to move from PC to mac and I am a Cubase SX3 user.
Moving to Mac what would be the best DAW considering I am in electronic music(lots of plug ins/effects runnig),Kore 2, Komplete 5, Virus TI, Moog Voyager(used to run with midisport 2x2), Machinedrum, JP-8080(almost in my hands...).
The DAW has to have a good relantionship with my voyager I heard Live has the best hardware integration and delay compensation and Logic does not have that.
I like the way Cubase deal with loops and putting everything on sync, is Logic the same?
Second doubt is the best sound interface for that system: Motu 828 mk3(has midi interface thats a bonus, but what about latency using lots of vsti's and vst's/AU's, RME 400 ou 800, Apogee Essemble?
Thanks.
P.S: I dont I will run windows xp sp2 with boot-camp under Leopard because I don't know anyone working good woth a DAW with that enviroment.
Thanks. |
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Kitnam
Mantik
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Posted : Apr 19, 2008 21:58
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I was into Cubase (never seen version 4) for years and switched after Sonar to Mac & Logic at February 2008. You got a Voyager. Honestly, congratulations about that! 
Ok, pointing on worst case: If you want audio-softwaremonitoring of you external synth through the DAW, Logic works not very well with that. There is no accurat latency compensation in case of negative midi-dealy set automaticly by the DAW to compensate the lack of timing between Midi-Out and the returned audiosignal into audio-line-in. Logic has not an auto-ping for latency adjustment of external signals or something like that. The only way there is direct monitoring with your audiointerface or making manual settings on negative midi delay for the midi-out midichannel, which can be a bit frustrating sometimes.
The internal plugin latency compensation works absolutly well for everything. About DSP-latency there is a bug out there with SSL-Duende, but maybe it allready got fixed with the last patch, thats the only bug I know so far.
I got one external synth here. I am just direct-monitoring, very often I play it with my Hands and just record it very early to throw mixing-plugins on them. But running Logic as a virtual mixboard for external played machines as the track goes could be horrible in my imagination.
Anyway, and I realy have to say that, I just take it. Because Logic shines too good at things which are important for me: Intuitive very fast workflow and no limits within mixerrouting.
My overall time it takes for finishing one track has been reduced dramatically.
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MadScientist
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Apr 20, 2008 04:43
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hmm...not much latency here using the external instrument plugin mantik.
 https://soundcloud.com/hazak
"Have you ever had that feeling where you're not sure if you're awake or still dreaming?"
"Hmm, yeah... All the time, man - it's called mescaline. The only way to fly!" |
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ecsmix
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Apr 20, 2008 05:40
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Thanks for th replies specially you Kitnam.
I was wondering the main things that made you change from Sonar-CUBASE to Logic.
Cubase looks like better but I heard Logic is the only one which can use all the processing power and ram memory on a Mac.
Performance was the thing that made me quit PC(not really only WINDOWS), so I am a bit worry about that.
However eventually I know Cubase will make a upgrade that will support multiple processors and 8 Gigs of Ram.
In your opinion the best features between Logic and Cubase.
About hardware I saw in a book about Logic 8 about something with external hardware be threated as a Plug in inside Logic, anyway I am lost I need your help.
Thanks. |
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Kitnam
Mantik
Started Topics :
110
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Posted : Apr 20, 2008 11:16
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Quote:
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On 2008-04-20 04:43, MadScientist wrote:
hmm...not much latency here using the external instrument plugin mantik.
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"Not much" is allready "too much" isnt it? Especially with higher buffer-sizes. How do you compensate the software-monitoring-latency with the external instrument? I crawled through tons of forums not finding a real satisfying solution but saw many people having problems with that.
@Ecsmix
Yes, you can handle external instruments as "plugins" which is the same as 2 trax in the arrangement: 1. audio-line-in with softwaremonitoring and midi-out, but both melt together. The virtual plugin for external instruments just looks likes a midi-track at the arrangement-window and an audio-track on the mixerwindow, this comes with every software instrument too (if you want to) and is just nice for the overview. Technically there is no difference between a softwaremonitoring through the classic way (2 trax, one audio and one midi) and therefore there is no delay compensation auto-adjusted by the daw. A ping-calculation would be enough allready, but there isnt something like that. So you have to edit the dealy on the miditrack/virtual instrument-track manually. Which can be hell with changing buffersizes and offcourse the recorded material will have a different timing anyway. I always have to fix the recorded material: Cutting and pushing the recorded audio into position, etc. which goes ultrafast if you know how to use your mousescroll and alt+shift btw.
As allready said the mainreason of my switch to Logic is the workflow it supports. I realy dig it to finish 4 trax in 2 month instead of only 1 in the same time. Btw. are you talking about Cubase 3? I think 4 is on the same niveau as Logic or even higher, but Cubase 3 can never stand against Logic 8. To many time has passed and things which had been new sometimes are standarts today a daw should have. Easy to use Midi-learn for example for usage of external Midi-controllers. Just Klick, learn and there you have your controller sitting on the plugin instantly. On the old cubase you have this midi-matrix where you have to klick & selectr channels until the end of time to get your midi-controller routed into the vst-paramater of your choice. Something like that is pure wasting of too much time for things which allready have better solutions on modern daws. Same with automation, since I have logic I finally use automation on almost every channel because it comes very handy and transparent. In Cubase SX I always felt very distracted and irritated by the tons of dots and curves sitting somewhere between your arrangement-window which made it very unpleasent to work and edit with in my opinion.
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MadScientist
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Apr 20, 2008 14:15
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I dont recognize any latency at all here 
but I dont use an external instrument channel, I use a normal Instrument channel like for audio units with the external instrument plugin. 
https://soundcloud.com/hazak
"Have you ever had that feeling where you're not sure if you're awake or still dreaming?"
"Hmm, yeah... All the time, man - it's called mescaline. The only way to fly!" |
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Kitnam
Mantik
Started Topics :
110
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1151
Posted : Apr 20, 2008 15:29
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Using the plugin or midi-channel doesnt makes a latency difference on my setup. Do you use software or direct monitoring and how big is your buffersize?
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Suloo
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Apr 20, 2008 17:08
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I doesn`t depend on logic or the sequencer itself..it depends on how good the drivers of your soundcard are build..for example rme drivers are one of the bests on the market..
so it really can make a huge difference..my echo driver is working far better as core audio..so in logic or live..but not that freat in cubase as asio version on a mac..but as asio on a pc its even better..so its the development..
btw.. logic has got one of the worst audio engines on the market at the moment..like you mix something,bounce it out and it doesn`t sound the same as in the sequencer..next better choice is cubase..then pro tools and samplitude got the best engine on the market..where it really almost sounds like in the sequencer..
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Kitnam
Mantik
Started Topics :
110
Posts :
1151
Posted : Apr 20, 2008 17:30
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Quote:
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btw.. logic has got one of the worst audio engines on the market at the moment..
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This is hard to believe indeed. Do you have any proven facts about that? About latency: A simple ping metering in the daw and everbody would be happy, no matter what kind of driver.
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Trip-
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
101
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3239
Posted : Apr 20, 2008 17:32
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doesn't sound the same? Although I don't hear any difference in the output, but logically, when you bounce 24bit audio from 32bitfloat audio, diether or no diether, yes it will probably b a bit different.
Other than that, Logic's "audio engine" is perfectly normal.
Crackling universes dive into their own neverending crackle...
AgalactiA |
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Suloo
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
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Posted : Apr 20, 2008 18:58
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Quote:
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On 2008-04-20 17:30, Kitnam wrote:
Quote:
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btw.. logic has got one of the worst audio engines on the market at the moment..
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This is hard to believe indeed. Do you have any proven facts about that? About latency: A simple ping metering in the daw and everbody would be happy, no matter what kind of driver.
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actualy no proven facts like that..but its the common opinion of experiences by heaps studio engineers around my area..for whom we build up the studios..i will ask further ongoing tomorrow at work and will tell you about what i get on information..sorry if it was too offensive spoken,but there are differences between the sequencers.
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ecsmix
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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Posted : Apr 20, 2008 23:18
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Awesome replies guys, thanks.
About latency I read somewhere that if the sound card has direct monitoring is the problem solved?
What about this:
"828mk3 Clock and sync
The 828mk3 uses extremely accurate Direct Digital Synthesis™ for internal clocking and for resolving to external word clock or SMPTE time code sources. The 828mk3 can resolve directly to time code, with no additional sychronizer required.
The 828mk3 is equipped with Direct Digital Synthesis™ (DDS), a DSP-driven phase lock engine and very high frequency digital clock source that produces imperceptibly low jitter characteristics (well below the overall noise floor), even when the 828mk3 is resolved to an external clock source via either word clock or SMPTE time code. This technology represents the very latest in extremely high-performance, yet cost-effective digital audio clocking. DDS also allows the 828mk3 to filter incoming clock sources that may have substantially more jitter than the 828mk3 itself."
Does it solve the problem from all daw that doesn't have compensation?
What's more, I would like to know how logic handle acapellas, 70's songs woith a lot of variation in time and wav loops to put everything in syc with your project I heard logic 7 was a pain to do that and cubase sx 3 is a breeze.
Do you guys know that?
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Kitnam
Mantik
Started Topics :
110
Posts :
1151
Posted : Apr 21, 2008 22:48
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on working with logic it lacks a bit with audioediting fast I have to say. Not much time yet..
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MadScientist
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Apr 22, 2008 02:30
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ecsmix: I dont know really what you want to do with 70ies songs  but its kinda simple to transfer the tempo of an audiofile (including variations) to a project. first you got to make midinotes from the audio with audio-to-score command, then simply transfer the midinotes to the tempo with beat mapping.
mantik: you re totally right...the only thing I really dont like in logic is the lack of propper offline processing.
but what the hell logic has a lot to offer...I even found something like protools "tab-to-transient" command lately!
https://soundcloud.com/hazak
"Have you ever had that feeling where you're not sure if you're awake or still dreaming?"
"Hmm, yeah... All the time, man - it's called mescaline. The only way to fly!" |
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ecsmix
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
20
Posts :
68
Posted : Apr 22, 2008 04:06
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cool man thanks, 70's songs is only a example, like how hard is to put celebration(kool and the gang in sync with a psy loop, just for remixing purpose.I know it's strange...lol
This method of logic I never heard very cool, is that work with acapellas and everything right?
So how is the offline processing in logic?
thanks
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