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cosmo 10 hours live act?
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filter
Moderator
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703
Posted : Apr 13, 2011 15:41
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Quote:
| I don't feel cheated anymore when I see someone booked as live, I just expect them to be doing a DJ set then if they actually do a live set then I get to be surprised |
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true 
but
Quote:
| then that's a level of manipulation not generally available to DJs, so why call it DJing? |
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also true .
i guess all the points have been said now, im happy that at least i could comment on cosmo's set, something that ive always enjoyed. about live sets and dj sets the discussion can go on forever, but it seems we more or less are aware of the limits and the possibilities. maybe in the future different things will happen, but for me its always interesting to talk about whats going on right now. once again for me trance and all its knowledge its something that stays a lot in the parties and meetings, its cool to document it somehow.
  Psychedelic Trance from Argentina
www.darkprisma.com.ar
www.megalopsy.com.ar
www.psytrance.com.ar
Megalopsy Travel Blog
http://megalopsy.blogspot.com |
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Colin OOOD
OOOD/Voice of Cod
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Posted : Apr 13, 2011 16:04
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Willsanquil and Basilisk speak from my brain.
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On 2011-04-08 22:44, filter wrote:
oh and going back to the original intention of the discussion
i still think that saying its 'live' to refer to a 'dj set' is ok, but only when the person 'djing' is playing his own music. so my answer would be 'yes i think its ok to announce cosmo live'. its better than putting dj set.
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Not meant primarily as a promo post; more to make a point, but - here's a picture of OOOD doing a DJ set of our tracks:
If you don't know the difference between live and recorded music then I gotta say, it must be a blast listening to classical music - how do they get all those liddle liddle people into the CD player?
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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filter
Moderator
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Posted : Apr 13, 2011 16:17
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hello collin
if you quote me out of context it definitely will make me sound bad hahah .
i agree and ive been lucky to see you play live and i really could notice the difference . but we were talking about multi layered 170bpm trance, which definitly cant be followed by drums, etc. i was referring very specifically to this type of music and a new thing that is going on which is this long sets idea. i was talking about the limits of this style and that is not completely unfair to call what cosmo makes a live set.
anyways, how the f*ck do they get all the people inside there?
Psychedelic Trance from Argentina
www.darkprisma.com.ar
www.megalopsy.com.ar
www.psytrance.com.ar
Megalopsy Travel Blog
http://megalopsy.blogspot.com |
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Apr 13, 2011 19:02
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Hate to be a stickler, but your logic seems to be this:
since it is impossible to follow said style of music with live instruments/drums, and since people spend lots of time on the music in the studio...it's ok to call it a live set?
You say there is a limit, that you cannot play it or create it in a live manner. If that's true (and I see your point), then I don't think that these artists 'deserve' the title of Live act.
and BTW - the 'level of manipulation' available to DJs is only significantly different when we're comparing, say, a CDJ using DJ and an artist using Ableton...
I submit that the level of manipulation available to digital DJs now is not that much different from an artist mixing in that style. the DJs don't have access to the stems but they can chop the song up into loops or phrases and re-arrange it...effect it...etc..
It's one thing if you have all your tracks broken into clips and you build a new track out of parts in the moment from scratch...I would consider that to be closer to a live act than a DJ set. From what you're describing though I don't think that's what happens when Cosmo plays.
Of course the lines are blurring considerably, but I still stand behind my opinion that tossing out the Live Act title to anyone just because they spent a lot of time doing non-live shit is an indirect insult to the people who do make the effort to play live and deal with the pitfalls and difficulties of that endeavour.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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filter
Moderator
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Posted : Apr 13, 2011 23:29
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but would it still be an insult to call it live when people know the difference?
i mean saying live for any of the 'real live' projects is still not live compared to a rock band. for sure there is people who consider electronic music not valid as music, but come on, not here, not in this scene. i mean if you really get down to the word itself, live would only be true if its 100% live, and we agree that its not possible in electronic music.
but if you do accept that some parts can be done live, then why draw the line in instruments/drums? i still think that loops, mash ups and mixes are valid 'live' interactions as much as playing drums or instruments. and this is done by artists like psykovsky for example. the tracks are not built from scratch but are mixed and mashed up live, and for me this is something different, something that 'deserves' more than just dj set.
maybe we need a new word, 'psytrance experience', 'bla bla'. i guess im just introducing a variation to the meaning of the word live, a word that is used in the 'trance dialect'.
i still think that its not an insult to call live what is currently presented as a live set in the dark psy scene. i think you need a different word to call it, and this one is still kinda ok for me. for me is more about defining what is really going on and how it evolves.
Psychedelic Trance from Argentina
www.darkprisma.com.ar
www.megalopsy.com.ar
www.psytrance.com.ar
Megalopsy Travel Blog
http://megalopsy.blogspot.com |
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Apr 14, 2011 00:09
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I don't really understand your first statement...
For the sake of the argument, sure, 'real live' projects aren't as live as a rock band. We're not comparing trance to rock though, we're talking about the difference between a DJ set and a Live set in the context of psychedelic trance. I don't see a reason to bring other styles of music into it. Also, yes, you can't do it all 100% live.
However, you can do quite a lot live. There are also quite a lot of DJ/mixing techniques.
"mixed and mashed up live" - DJs do this. I could chop a darkpsy track into a bunch of pieces and mix the shit out of it in Ableton....or set a bunch of cue points on a CDj and do the same thing....did I do something live? No? Only if it's my music I'm doing it to?
You keep saying that the way in which darkpsy is mixed by certain people is 'deserving' of 'more' than the title of DJ. I've seen Psykovsky multiple times, and I would call what he does DJing. I don't think he deserves the live title personally. Then again, tons of people seem to go apeshit over him, goa gil, cosmo and they're just totally not my thing so I'm biased.
Mashups, mixes, using loops are all DJ tools and they create new and unheard combinations all the time - but when someone does it in darkpsy they get the title of live act? I think that's unfair to DJs who are doing the same things more or less than those acts are doing, and unfair to the actual live acts who put in the time and effort required to be able to perform live and create something completely in that moment.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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filter
Moderator
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Posted : Apr 14, 2011 01:01
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i agree with everything you say on the last statement actually, i just wouldnt call what they do just a dj set. this is the part where i still have to respectully disagree .
however what you say is not live applies to basically 90% of the 'live acts' of the psychedelic trance scene, not only darkpsy. so this is why i still think there is a difference in how the word is used, in psychedelic trance live act means something else somehow. i guess it would be difficult to make a difference when is a real live act like collin showed and there is when i agree with you.
i guess the whole psytrance scene is kinda 'fake' when it comes to live sets in the way you define it. i somehow still see a more intangible difference which is not found in the way the technical part and its the experience of seeing the guy who wrote the music just playing it.
Psychedelic Trance from Argentina
www.darkprisma.com.ar
www.megalopsy.com.ar
www.psytrance.com.ar
Megalopsy Travel Blog
http://megalopsy.blogspot.com |
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pete
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Apr 14, 2011 01:36
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It sounds to me that a distinction is being made here, by Filter for example, between two types of activities by performers:
1: Play songs, try not to fuck up
2: Play songs with loops, complex mashups, etc.
I agree the lines are being blurred, but I would generally consider both of those things to be dj sets. The funny thing is that two complaints one frequently hears about psytrance are that the lives are fake and there aren't good djs that can draw by themselves. But if you just called what Psykovsky does a dj set, neither of those complaints would be valid.
http://soundcloud.com/herbert-quain |
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Apr 14, 2011 01:38
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Yeah I think we'll just have to respectfully disagree. I have enjoyed this discussion though
The thing is, all my thoughts about live vs not live aside, I don't really give a shit when I'm at a party. It's not like I'll go "hey! you were booked as live and YOU'RE NOT CONFORMING TO MY IDEA OF WHAT THAT IS! I don't care if you're playing awesome music that you spent hundreds of hours making, fuck this shit i'm out of here!"
I'm there to enjoy the music and dance - at this point I expect all live acts to be doing light mixing and rearranging in ableton and if someone actually does something more than that, I heap praise on them and dance my face off.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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V3NOM
Inactive User
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Posted : Apr 14, 2011 02:47
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About 170BPM drums being to fast for a human to play, due this is not true at all.
There are plenty of amateur and professional heavy metal drummers who are tracked well beyond that. The drummer from Polish band Behemoth has been tracked at playing his drums up and above 300BPM and it actually sound a lot more coherent than a lot of the glitch drum patterns than in dark psy.
I played my nephew who is a metal drummer some high end dark psy, and he was easily copying the basic patterns at the same speed and he's like 15 years old.
I'm not saying it's easy to do a completely live psy set but it's not as impossible as you make it out to be either and I think some punters get a bit tired of reading "live" when it is not.
At least be honest and say Live Mixed or Live In Person, because it is simply not live music.
Live music is seeing a person recreate or even completely create new music with very little if nothing pre-recorded.
The false use of "Live" in electronic music has been for very many people in the general public the essential turn off from getting into it.
I have heard many people new to the scene say how disappointed they were to pay to see a "live" act when it was just a bloke behind a laptop that you cannot see anything.
False promotion is negative, and negative breeds negative.
I think like everything it starts with the people at work level, and artists need to star being honest and telling promoters no I'm DJ'ing nt playing Live so don't advertise it.
Don't you want to improve the scene? Or is the whole psy hippy attitude of being a counter cultural and being true just a something not real?
The best example of fake live I saw was X-Dream & Astral Projection. X-Dream were tweaking a rather large mixing deck that I know had nothing, including the power cord, plugged in.
Astral Projection I also know not a single synth or mixer was plugged in to the power source but they still pretended to play it, and at one point both left the stage to get a drink at the bar while music was still going.
I have seen many other international acts not so big do similar things, and it is such a turn off.
If you are not playing 100% live then be honest and do not advertise that. Don't just go along with a lazy attitude for no change just because it means more money, it's what the dodgy business men and people in war say. "I just did it because everybody else was".
It's not live, it's lazy.
I hate you, you hate me, we are all so hap hap happy! |
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demoniac
Demoniac Insomniac
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Posted : Apr 14, 2011 05:14
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I have a suggestion that maybe will satisfy our needs:
1. Live act - Live performance that is very close to the "rock band" performace, this would include bands like Shulman, Spongle, Cosmosis, Skazi etc...
Performance includes: Playing a real instrument like drums, guitar, Keyboard synth, and other similar instruments.
2. Live set - Performace that is made by an artist playing his own tracks, performace includes:
Dj set of the tracks, playing with loops, mashing up tracks, playing with effects etc.
3.Dj set is performance which includes playing tracks from other artists, without too much changes in the structure of the sounds.
What do you think?
VA - Spiritual Science out now!
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moondoggy
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8
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175
Posted : Apr 14, 2011 07:06
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i think if we dont do it MY WAY its awful and you shall all pay dearly for your inferiority |
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moondoggy
Started Topics :
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175
Posted : Apr 14, 2011 07:14
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seriously tho i like your terminology demoniac |
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grahf
Started Topics :
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107
Posted : Apr 14, 2011 08:37
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I understand both points of view being presented. More precise terminology is definitely needed. Just wanted to say two things:
Live Drum n' Bass @ 170bpm definitely exists (the drummer from STS9 can keep it steady at that speed).
Tom Cosm has no secrets, he gives away his entire Ableton set virtually for free. So instead of making assumptions about what he may or may not be doing on stage, look it's all right here: http://www.cosm.co.nz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=144&Itemid=93 |
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filter
Moderator
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Posted : Apr 14, 2011 09:45
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