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Consensus on Reason?
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mubali
Mubali
Started Topics :
71
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2219
Posted : Aug 30, 2007 22:59
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On 2007-08-30 14:52, shamantrixx wrote:
I disagree, and here is why:
Your point of view is based upon your knowledge about Reason. I know that tool very well and I know that it has certain unique features that can not be reproduced in VST based sequencers. CV (control voltage) alone provides options that are not possible in other VST sequencers. Reason is not made to compete with Cubase or Logic Audio. Reason provides exactly what other tools don't have. For example "rack logic", CV, Scream distortion, frequency sensitive sidechain compression, infinite dB slope filtering, advanced vocoding using separate CV for each band etc. etc.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_voltage
Please explain how a software program with no analog circuitry can send a control voltage signal.
-it's based upon an algorhythm meant to simulate those values, just like an lfo is an algorhythm. 
I do admit that reason has some routing capabilities that many other synths do not, but the control voltage thing is just a good marketing ploy to get analog hardware users to use that piece of software. Same with the rack mount style of things, it's just a nifty gui that makes old hardware users not feel like such geeks for using a computer to make their sounds.
Also CV was used primarily before midi was really popular in synthesizers, so in a sense midi replaced cv. Now I admit that even midi is outdated, but if you know what midi control number (CC#)a parameter is on a vst, you can use software to control that particular parameter with a curve you can virtually draw in some DAW cases.
Even with midi, you're limited to 128 channels or parameters, that's where automation comes in, because it actually doesn't even use the midi cc # to control the paramater.
Reason can be an excellent tool for people who are willing to invest the time in using it. Occasionally I rewire it to grab some sounds or to experiment with some weird routing idea I had in my sleep the night before. In the end, learn all of the DAW's and buy the ones you can't live without.
  An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
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Auralviolence
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
58
Posted : Aug 31, 2007 00:34
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Who like modular software that provides wide routing possibilities, I advise to learn Reaktor (on quit deep level), as it can very many things as instrument and as FX. And also there is very cool and interesting program - Plogue Bidule. |
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shamantrixx
Started Topics :
7
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549
Posted : Aug 31, 2007 04:51
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On 2007-08-30 22:59, mubali wrote:
Please explain how a software program with no analog circuitry can send a control voltage signal.
-it's based upon an algorhythm meant to simulate those values, just like an lfo is an algorhythm. |
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Everything on PC or MAC DAW is a simulation of real gear. So what's the point of pointing to obvious and non relevant fact. Is ANY part of Cubase or Logic Audio analog? Does anything escapes from algorithms? I don't think so. So that's the answer to your question.
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On 2007-08-30 22:59, mubali wrote:
Also CV was used primarily before midi was really popular in synthesizers, so in a sense midi replaced cv. |
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I see that you've never used Reasons CV. Midi did not replaced CV because for example synth filter is not able to produce MIDI CC values that you can route to increase amount of reverb as the filter moves down the scope and vice versa. Almost all parts of Reason generate CV and that can be used to control just about any other parameter in the rack.
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
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5380
Posted : Aug 31, 2007 06:32
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You just love to argue don't you Shamantrixx Even with people with whom you basically agree. I think Mubali might just have believed that you were taking Propellerheads' naming of Reason's internal control routing system a little too literally 
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On 2007-08-31 04:51, shamantrixx wrote:
Midi did not replaced CV because for example synth filter is not able to produce MIDI CC values that you can route to increase amount of reverb as the filter moves down the scope and vice versa.
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You're absolutely right in that there aren't many synth's filters which can actually generate a control signal by themselves (they tend to respond to control signals, not generate them); however many synths allow you to modulate both reverb amount and filter cutoff by different amounts with the same MIDI controller, or envelope, or LFO, or whatever. Reason just has a very convenient way of doing these things that works identically across all its devices rather than having to assicn CCs and learn a new modulation matrix for each new synth - but that's really all it is under the hood: a very flexible digital modulation matrix. As you know, I'm sure
The only way I can make the phrase "MIDI did not replaced CV" make sense is if it refers specifically either to the terminology used to refer to the internal control routing system of some pieces of digital audio software (but not to the mechanics of that routing system itself), or to true analog synths designed after the introduction of MIDI.
Please excuse my wordiness, I just wanted to try and avoid being misundestood
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mubali
Mubali
Started Topics :
71
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2219
Posted : Aug 31, 2007 07:58
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You are right Colin, I did take him quite literally when he mentioned CV. However the terminology that Propellerheads uses in that particular statement can be slightly misleading if you have or use analog gear. It is just another name for the internal modulation routing, which does make Reason a very powerful "plugin"... hehe
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In historical terms MIDI did replace CV... here's a link from an excerpt of from a Reason Quick Start Guide:
"Control voltage (CV) is an electronics term that refers to the way synthesizers communicated in the days before MIDI and computer technology."
http://www.peachpit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=410692&seqNum=7&rl=1
Before MIDI, when synths only used CV/GATE, different manufacturers used different ratios of voltage to control parameters ie +12/-12 and +10/-10. MIDI was created as a universal language, so that one manufacturer's synth could to "talk" correctly to another manufacturer's.
MIDI uses note on and note off messages as replacements for gate messages. CC#'s essentially replaced CV messages. You can even use different CC#'s to re-create gate messages usually it is 64 = on, below 64 = off, dependent on the effected parameter.
Reason uses “CV” as virtual “patchcords” to modulate one parameter with another, much like many vsti or hardware synths can. Most Linplug and other VSTi’s call it the modulation matrix. However in Reason you see a virtual “patchcord” making the connection. On the Virus you can assign a knob or one of the many other modulators to control filter cutoff as well as reverb amount or almost every other parameter on the synth.
Much like most VSTi’s, Reason does not transmit MIDI out to be able control 3rd party effects, VSTi’s or synths. All of the modulation routing is internal. However, programs like Reaktor can transmit MIDI data out to other synths. So, when using Cubase with Reaktor you get a much more modular environment than you can with Reason.
If you really like modular routing check out Reaktor. You’ll find you can gain access to a lot more effects and synths as well as even more complex routing and sequencing modules. You can even rewire Reason in Cubase and have Reaktor control parameters in Reason.
Or do what we have in the studio and get a real analog modular with cv/gate to midi and midi to cv/gate converters..
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t179/mubali/DSCN0439.jpg
An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
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the daleks
The Daleks
Started Topics :
34
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584
Posted : Aug 31, 2007 08:58
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So it seams to me ...
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sounds like your making a judgement...
to clarify, I used Reason for a few years, and Rebirth before that, and found it useful for learning about signal flow, and the virtual rack, but eventually went back to the software that I had origianlly started learning on (Logic) as I found that it was more versatile as well as flexible
sorry if i caused anger by calling it a toy. didnt mean for it to be taken that way, although now I see that the way I wrote it suggested that.
anyway as we said its not the tool or toy, its the person and how they use it, but its also good to be aware of the technical aspects in order to make an informed choice if you are laying cash on the line :=)
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the daleks
The Daleks
Started Topics :
34
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584
Posted : Aug 31, 2007 09:10
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Psyfex
Started Topics :
2
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23
Posted : Aug 31, 2007 09:25
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anyway as we said its not the tool or toy, its the person and how they use it, but its also good to be aware of the technical aspects in order to make an informed choice if you are laying cash on the line :=)
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Yes thats very true, and i dont think Reason is really worth the money unless you really put some effort into using it well.
I bought it, and im happy because i have learned to use it well, but like i said, i'd never want to use it by itself!! lol
It definatly does have a below-par audio engine.
But you can get around that with a decent set of engineering ears, and in the context of a mix where other programs and VSTs and hardware are being used as well, it doesnt really matter.
I tend to bounce tracks out of Reason for further processing, and ends up sounding the same as a quality VST anyway.
And yeah, the CV thing.....lol.....
Ahh yes...i do have a soft spot for Propellerheads unique marketing terminology hehehe, i think its great 
Peace y'all!
http://www.myspace.com/psyfexmusic |
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shamantrixx
Started Topics :
7
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549
Posted : Aug 31, 2007 15:43
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On 2007-08-31 06:32, Colin OOOD wrote:
You just love to argue don't you Shamantrixx Even with people with whom you basically agree. I think Mubali might just have believed that you were taking Propellerheads' naming of Reason's internal control routing system a little too literally
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Perhaps you're right. Link to Wikipedia made me a bit nervous but I guess it could be seen as non sarcastic also.
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On 2007-08-31 06:32, Colin OOOD wrote:
You're absolutely right in that there aren't many synth's filters which can actually generate a control signal by themselves (they tend to respond to control signals, not generate them)...
...Reason just has a very convenient way of doing these things that works identically across all its devices rather than having to assicn CCs and learn a new modulation matrix for each new synth - but that's really all it is under the hood: a very flexible digital modulation matrix. As you know, I'm sure |
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That's exactly what I was thinking of. As usual you are much more eloquent than I am in formulating technical descriptions both due to language and knowledge advantage you have.
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On 2007-08-31 06:32, Colin OOOD wrote:
The only way I can make the phrase "MIDI did not replaced CV" make sense is if it refers specifically either to the terminology used to refer to the internal control routing system of some pieces of digital audio software (but not to the mechanics of that routing system itself), or to true analog synths designed after the introduction of MIDI.
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I agree with you on all accounts.
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Aug 31, 2007 16:13
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On 2007-08-31 15:43, shamantrixx wrote:
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On 2007-08-31 06:32, Colin OOOD wrote:
You just love to argue don't you Shamantrixx Even with people with whom you basically agree. I think Mubali might just have believed that you were taking Propellerheads' naming of Reason's internal control routing system a little too literally
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Perhaps you're right. Link to Wikipedia made me a bit nervous but I guess it could be seen as non sarcastic also.
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I don't think I've ever known Greg to make a sarcastic post on here, although his shit-eating grin in that photo makes my fingers itch to make one myself out of sheer jeaousy...
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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mubali
Mubali
Started Topics :
71
Posts :
2219
Posted : Aug 31, 2007 18:39
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You're right, I was trying to informative as well as slightly cheeky. What bugs me about software and hardware developers is the terminology that is used to confuse people. So in a sense you have a situation like what occured. They just like to call it CV. When reason came out, it was originally being marketed to those guys who didn't wanna give up their analog rigs, so it was quite advantageous to make the product look like an analog rack setup, and therefore use the same terminology that old analog gear had.
In today's standpoint Reason's kinda painted itself into a corner sticking with that, but for other genres or music, some people prefer that to any other software based system. It would be killer if they actually supported midi out and the ability to record and play raw audio files outside of the sampler, but in the end they really want to stick with their proprietary format. It does make the program more stable, but with the flurry of new technology and new options, it feels like they're kinda shooting themselves in the foot. I still occasionally use reason if I'm bored with whatever else I've been using and am too scared to fire up the Doepfer... (We call it the Tower of Power). The thing is there's no 1 tool that's gonna be the end all be all, everyone's gonna find something they like and something they don't. With the advancements in software capabilities, it can be a lot easier to use multiple softwares for the ultimate goal, making really kick ass music.
Oh and to be just a little more cheeky, in that picture is the Doepfer, a Morpheus, TC Powercore and a Yamaha FS1R. (My roomie's a major gear slut.) But funny enough, He usually just uses his TI, and I use the Microwave. But when we get really baked, we fire up the Modular, turn one of the computers on to record everything, and geek out for 5 hours... and have enough source audio for like 20 tracks... Next Session we do, I'll make a package for isratrance and let you guys go at it.
An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
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fuzzikitten
Annunaki
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
603
Posted : Aug 31, 2007 20:06
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On 2007-08-31 18:39, mubali wrote:
we get really baked, we fire up the Modular, turn one of the computers on to record everything, and geek out for 5 hours...
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It's the simple things in life, really.  |
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spinalpuppet
Started Topics :
3
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87
Posted : Aug 31, 2007 20:28
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[quote
Oh and to be just a little more cheeky, in that picture is the Doepfer, a Morpheus, TC Powercore and a Yamaha FS1R. (My roomie's a major gear slut.)
[/quote]
haha, holly fuck thats some synth power!Plus a microwave and virus, damn, thats like the best roommate to have ever. actually i dont think it would be possible to get more power than that.
I actually disagree though that you can get more modular with reaktor than with reason. I guess it depends on how you define modular. Reaktor is modular in the way a C++ function is modular, in that you can reuse parts over and over without having to build them again. Hopefully they add patch cords and an i/o to the front panel in 6 because it would be really nice to be able to knock off a real modular routing thing in reaktor.
The nice thing about the analog modular type interface is you can patch wires togather
without having a clue what is going to happen. In reaktor if you open up an ens and just start wiring its just going to break unless you know exactly what your going for.
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Auralviolence
Started Topics :
0
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58
Posted : Sep 1, 2007 01:13
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On 2007-08-31 20:28, spinalpuppet wrote:
I actually disagree though that you can get more modular with reaktor than with reason.
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And I disagree with you. If you know, reaktor's ensemble can contain many instruments (in can be synths, samplers, FX, ect.) , that you connect directly (wiring) all together, or by send/receive modules or by IC send/IC receive or by the OSC (open sound control) system !. And also reaktor has MIDI-out ! And now think, what did you say |
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spinalpuppet
Started Topics :
3
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87
Posted : Sep 1, 2007 03:03
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IC send/IC receive is a joke, i can't stand it. its basically an invisible patch cord. If you get 5 of them going it becomes impossible to know what is doing what, you can easily tell what 10-20 patch cords are doing though.
Check out that second g2 patch i posted in the other thread. I added 3 lfos to the first patch and wired them up with 6 clicks.
To do that in IC is way more work, then more work to undo what you just did if it doesnt sound good. I'm confident though we get patch cords, panel i/o and an fft/vector data type as the 6 upgrade though. There is nothing more to add to reaktor at this point.
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On 2007-09-01 01:13, Auralviolence wrote:
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On 2007-08-31 20:28, spinalpuppet wrote:
I actually disagree though that you can get more modular with reaktor than with reason.
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And I disagree with you. If you know, reaktor's ensemble can contain many instruments (in can be synths, samplers, FX, ect.) , that you connect directly (wiring) all together, or by send/receive modules or by IC send/IC receive or by the OSC (open sound control) system !. And also reaktor has MIDI-out ! And now think, what did you say
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