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Consensus on Reason?
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vector_0
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
113
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1191
Posted : Aug 29, 2007 02:10
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I've been using Reason for a few years, and very much enjoy using this program. However, I hear lots of people talking about how "the sound quality sucks." I'm not really a sound snob, so I don't understand whats so bad about it...can anyone clue me in?
Also, I'm told that rewiring your song to another program can improve the quality, but I'm not sure what the optimal way to go about it is; should i rewire each individual sequencer track, bypassing Reason's mastering suite, or should i just rewire the whole mix?
Any advice you folks might have would be much appreciated |
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Chuk
Started Topics :
5
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34
Posted : Aug 29, 2007 02:39
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ive used reason since the begining. I still do its just that it truly is limited in quality so you have to use its strengths and use other programs for their strengths or to make up for its weakness. bass is really nearly impossible to make in reason rewire into cubase logic live whatever and do it that way.
for me the best thing about reason is the nn19 and the subtractor.
use the nn19 as a synth put some really dynamic sound in it and use its filters and panning to make it sound more like a synth.
the subtractor is really hard to get good sound out of so you usually need to get a spider on it send one to one delay then one to the other delay. set one at 1ms and one at around 10-25 ms then pan one left and pan one right then run it back through the spider as a wider stereo. now even then its still tricky to get a truly good sound.
Dont let your ears get used to the way reason sounds. listen to some music with some amazing wideness and panning then produce.
in summary maybe to clear up the above confusion.
reason sounds incredibly thin dont try to use it for a whole track use it here and there if you must.
but since hardly anyone uses it in the trance world you can get some truly unique sounds. but use them sparingly.
another thing i have done is build a folder or synth loops in reason and export them as wav files then took them into cubase and edit and add effects there
chuk
 www.anomalisticrecords.com
info@anomalisticrecords.com
Benefit V.A. Anomalistic Behaviors Out Now! |
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Chuk
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
34
Posted : Aug 29, 2007 02:41
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then again maybe 4.0 will be better but I think for 500 dollars its kinda risky
www.anomalisticrecords.com
info@anomalisticrecords.com
Benefit V.A. Anomalistic Behaviors Out Now! |
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Auralviolence
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
58
Posted : Aug 29, 2007 03:35
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Yes - Reason sucks...
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On 2007-08-29 02:41, Chuk wrote:
then again maybe 4.0 will be better but I think for 500 dollars its kinda risky
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No, 4th version's sound quality is not better. People already have tested it. Reason's audiocore has not been changed, and IMHO it never will be changed, because if they change it - reason will use MUCH MORE cpu resources - the same as normal, good software (sequencers, synths, effects, etc.) - but thats not Reason's politics. The Reason's politics is: low cpu resources, fast work - but, of course, normal good DSP algorithms needs more CPU resources - so, it seems that Reason will never sound professionaly, because of this. It has very badly realised synth's oscillators with big amount of aliasing and waveform artifacts, bad samplers (if somebody is interested - try to load the clear sinus wave in it's sampler, mixdown it - and watch on spectreanalyzer what your sinus wave will be after Reason), low quality effects and mixing mathematics - all this is very "light" in Reason, and as the result - it needs low CPU resources, and sound quality is the same. Btw, some DSP professionals think that Reason uses sample rate downsampling and bitdepth lowering on some of it stages  So, the better choice is usig normal sequencer with "true" sound/DSP algorithms, good VSTs/DXis or/and hardware. And even Liam Howlett from Prodigy said in one of the interviews, that he stopped advertisment of Reason and will not advertise it (contract has runned out, hehe ). |
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AvS
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
464
Posted : Aug 29, 2007 23:00
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I think reason is great. You can get really far with it and it doesnt sound crap.
Shure you can get a better sound with better tools but Reason is still quite ok. |
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shamantrixx
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
549
Posted : Aug 30, 2007 00:54
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Now I've been using reason for quite a long time and I fail to understand the widespread need to label one tool as good or bad compared with another tool. If we ware discussing cars than such discussion would have some sense. You obviously can't drive more than one car at the time and combining different cars during your trip would be complicated, expensive and a waste of time and effort.
But we're talking about creating sound. Using one set of tools (like Cubase, Reason, Pro Tools etc.) you can make various sounds limited by the tools included in the particular tool set. Let's entertain for a moment the idea that we know for sure that (for example) Pro Tools has the best set of tools and it gives the best overall sound. Using Pro Tools would than be a smart idea considering the potential quality of the sound. However even the best tools have their limitations that define possible diversity of potential sounds. By combining other tools with Pro Tools you would extend the potential diversity of created sounds without compromising the overall quality of sound by using only the best features from other tools and blending them in Pro Tools. The more "other" tools you combine the less will your sound be limited by limitations of individual tools. I guess this is quite straight forward and logical conclusion.
So why the fuck do we have that tendency to debate and choose the ultimate tool for production of sound when it is obvious that such approach leads to uniformity and it limits our expression compared to combining tools methodology.
Do you know what makes a distinction between wise man and a fool? A wise man can learn even from a fool who stumbles on a truth every now and then while fool fails to recognize the truth even when he stumbles upon it.
So I think that it is utterly fullish to debate about and advocate usage of certain tools rather than the other tools. At least while we're talking about sound creation. For a car debate "diversity" approach would be equally useless as "uniformity" is in sound creation.
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
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the daleks
The Daleks
Started Topics :
34
Posts :
584
Posted : Aug 30, 2007 06:36
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I have to disagree shamantrixx. 
this is a techinical forum discussing issues with tools and techniques. all the previous posts were useful in that regard...
this kind of information is essential in developing a 'functional point of view' as you have stated
I found Reason useful awhile back, but have since moved on, as it strikes me a bit like a toy. it has the same tools as any DAW, but less of them, and with a less flexible approach. you can do the same things with any tool, agreed, but why have limitations? less limitations are better for a creative approach. oh, and the sound quality. unless you have to worry about CPU (less an issue these days). I'd rather be using a CS-80v or Albino in Logic anyday over Subtractor in Reason.
for those that like it and use it though, I would say use whats comfortable while always keeping an eye on what else is available, and dabbling when you can
'the crow keeps one eye on the past and one eye on the future, so it always flys straight' - native american proverb 
Gamma Riders EP out now on iTunes and Amazon.com!
The Daleks : www.myspace.com/thedaleksupreme
A-Boys : www.myspace.com/akibaboys |
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shamantrixx
Started Topics :
7
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549
Posted : Aug 30, 2007 14:52
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I disagree, and here is why:
Your point of view is based upon your knowledge about Reason. I know that tool very well and I know that it has certain unique features that can not be reproduced in VST based sequencers. CV (control voltage) alone provides options that are not possible in other VST sequencers. Reason is not made to compete with Cubase or Logic Audio. Reason provides exactly what other tools don't have. For example "rack logic", CV, Scream distortion, frequency sensitive sidechain compression, infinite dB slope filtering, advanced vocoding using separate CV for each band etc. etc.
So it seams to me that you have only scratched the surface of Reason. Browsing presets or trying to arrange complete songs in Reason without investigating the back patch possibilities is not very useful knowledge. Browsing presets on some VST's will give better results... but Reason wasn't made to be used that way at all.
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
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Kryptum
Kryptum
Started Topics :
13
Posts :
229
Posted : Aug 30, 2007 15:34
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i love reason,great sound design tool specially with the combinators.i also agree with shamantrixx,for the preset guys it might not be worth it. |
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jivamukti
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
21
Posts :
342
Posted : Aug 30, 2007 15:35
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And even Liam Howlett from Prodigy said in one of the interviews, that he stopped advertisment of Reason and will not advertise it (contract has runned out, hehe ).
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The "OMG Laim Howletz uses Reazon!!2!" hype was a bit of a scam. If you read the interviews carefully, he says he used it only as a quick sketchpad to get out of rut and after the initial stage, the projects were transferred to more "pro" sequencers where parts were often remade, and always processed thru loads of expensive analog gear. And he used his own analog synths anyway.
When rain dries, clouds form.
When clouds moisten, rain forms. |
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Auralviolence
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
58
Posted : Aug 30, 2007 15:58
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Quote:
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On 2007-08-30 14:52, shamantrixx wrote:
I know that it has certain unique features that can not be reproduced in VST based sequencers. CV (control voltage) alone provides options that are not possible in other VST sequencers. Reason provides exactly what other tools don't have. For example "rack logic", CV, Scream distortion, frequency sensitive sidechain compression, infinite dB slope filtering, advanced vocoding using separate CV for each band etc. etc.
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I know reason too - I've worked with it some time. And I always heared, that something is wrong with it sound - before I have known about all these DSP and other engeneering and digital audio physical procceses - all this helped me to understand, why Reason's sound have been seemed "strange/lo-fi" to me (I don't know why not all people notice this). And imho Reson have nothing unique that can't be made in other normal sequencer and synths and effects with good modulation matrixes, and other. |
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Auralviolence
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
58
Posted : Aug 30, 2007 16:01
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Quote:
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On 2007-08-30 15:34, Kryptum wrote:
for the preset guys it might not be worth it.
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And not preset guys too. |
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Kryptum
Kryptum
Started Topics :
13
Posts :
229
Posted : Aug 30, 2007 16:41
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cool! each on their own i guess...i'm sure no one's gonna stop using it because of this thread |
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Psyfex
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
23
Posted : Aug 30, 2007 20:14
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Hmm havent posted for almost a year hehe 
Lazy...
But anyway. Yes, i completely agree, Reason's digital audio engine is nowhere near as good as a professional native DAW or a Pro Tools HD system, and yes the OSC's on the Subtractor are thin and weak etc, but that doesnt matter imo. It's missing the point.
I would NEVER reccomend using Reason by itself for a professional, finished tune, but ReWired into a suitable host i think it can be brilliant.
I think it is a wonderful and creative and fun modular MIDI tool, one that is just a little bit different to the rest.
Best of all its very quick and CPU efficient. But thats also not the point.
Most of the presets in Reason sound like absolute shit garbage, and don't do it justice, but the potential to do so much better is there, if you put some hard work into FORCING it to sound good. It is definatly not a toy, and anyone who has used it to its full potential knows that.
I guess the fundimental point is, you dont NEED to use the absolute best VSTs and the most expensive converters to make professionally produced and arranged music.
I am a true believer in limitations, which is why i use very little different software, as i would rather use minimal tools well, than spam my HDD with pirated VSTs to bog me down in the tech details. There is limitations to the DAW digital world as a whole anyway, no matter what software you use, thanks to digital quantization distortion and the ability to easily overload the internal "in the box" summing mix buss.
I use way more tools (mainly hardware lol) than just Reason of course, but Reason is still part of my workflow when the time arises, and im not ashamed of that.
Now i'm NOT a veteran, and i am really quite new to producing electronic music, but i have been a trained musician for a many years and i study live audio and sound engineering at University, so i have a well developed ear. And yes i agree that Reason is not the best sounding tool out there, but i can say that with a bit of fundimental knowladge about the limitations of digital audio, and a decently developed ear for EQ, mix balance and harmonic structure, its possible to get a great sound out of just about any music tool out there in the modern world.
I know this has been said a million times, but it really doesnt matter what tools you use to make music, if you use them skillfully and stay within their limits, and you can develop a good integral sound from them, then you are on to a winner!
You need to MAKE your tools do something cool, not just go for the next best thing straight away.
Use whatever you can to express yourself musically i say!
All i know is, the best musical equipment and software that i have ever heard is WAAY out of my price range hehe....
Peace & love to all!
http://www.myspace.com/psyfexmusic |
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fuzzikitten
Annunaki
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
603
Posted : Aug 30, 2007 20:57
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Quote:
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On 2007-08-29 02:10, vector_0 wrote:
I've been using Reason for a few years, and very much enjoy using this program. However, I hear lots of people talking about how "the sound quality sucks." I'm not really a sound snob, so I don't understand whats so bad about it...can anyone clue me in?
Also, I'm told that rewiring your song to another program can improve the quality, but I'm not sure what the optimal way to go about it is; should i rewire each individual sequencer track, bypassing Reason's mastering suite, or should i just rewire the whole mix?
Any advice you folks might have would be much appreciated
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Reason - great to learn on, bad for serious music production. I cut my teeth with Reason for nearly two years before switching to Cubase and noticed an immediate improvement in my sound quality.
Can Reason make good sounds? Absolutely. There's a patch for subtractor that I love and use upon occasion, and it provides very interesting routing capabilities (and the wires bounce, hehe). But overall I find it sub par for mixing and sequencing.
Rewire the tracks directly to your midi out and don't bother with Reason's mixer. |
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