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Compress or Expand?
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e-motion
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 3, 2005 02:04
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Just for curiosity and to try to learn something new... when do you compress (rate > 1:1) and when do you expand (rate < 1:1) ?
I compress everything and expand the hats channel (closeds+open). Kick and Bassline i don't use anything most of the times (when i use is a C1 on the bassline sidechain and a GCO in the kick).
And does anyone uses\tried\likes double compression (expander then a compressor with higher threshold... to compress the expander effect) ? |
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Trip-
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : Nov 3, 2005 14:34
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Compressing the expander can have a possitive effect in very specific setups of both effects.
You would prefer to expand the lowest levels lower, and probably to compress the highest levels.
I don't usually use an expander, but I would use it with very delicate settings on certain vocals or other recorded parts.
You can put an expander on some percussion sequence when you'd like to put a part infront, but keeping the whole thing still playing - somewhere in the song that needs this part.
Or just be creative...
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cytopia
Cytopia.org
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Posted : Nov 3, 2005 15:21
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Sometimes I use and insert to compress the kick a bit, or route the kick channel to a group channel with a compressor
AND send say 20% to waves trans X (group or FX channel) i think this is an outward expander. So only a bit of the sound u hear is expanded, but it makes the kick more defined in the mids. You can do the same with the snare and HH for more definition, just dont send too much of the signal to the expander.
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dlx
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Posted : Nov 3, 2005 15:59
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From what i have understand so far, and please correct me if i'm wrong (i have very little practical experience with these things), is that a Compressor allows you to control the dynamic range by making soft sounds louder and loud sounds softer (make uneven sounds level).
An expander dramitically expands (drops) the signal to zero when it falls below the threshold. I thought this is a bit confusing as you would think expands means something else then drops right? 
maybe it doesn't answer your question e-motion but i thought i would add this info anyway. Also i try to understand it all a bit better myself  |
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e-motion
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 3, 2005 16:22
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ain't an expander a compressor with a 1:bigger_than_1 ratio ? |
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sonik_akb
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Posted : Nov 3, 2005 16:23
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Quote:
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On 2005-11-03 02:04, e-motion wrote:
Just for curiosity and to try to learn something new... when do you compress (rate > 1:1) and when do you expand (rate < 1:1) ?
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Expander works exactly like a compressor, but in reverse (the signal below the threshold is turned down according to the ratio setting - the signal above aren't increased in gain). Gate is the extreme case of expander, like limiter is the extreme case of compressor (generally, you use a limiter in the mastering process, where you wish to prevent some undesirable peaks on the final master). Consider the pad pumping case using gate: when the kick (or another percussive element) opens the gate, the pad is played for some T ms. Instead of gate, you can use an expander for a softer sound (I mean, not so abrupt).
Multiband compressor has an expander associated to the compressor in order to turn down the noise added when you use it.
It's possible to have two kind of expander: downward and upward expanders. the most commom is downward (described above, i.e. "soft gate"). Upward expander turns down the signal below the threshold and increases the gain of signals above this threshold.
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EYB
Noized
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Posted : Nov 3, 2005 16:58
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Quote:
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On 2005-11-03 15:59, dlx wrote:
From what i have understand so far, and An expander dramitically expands (drops) the signal to zero when it falls below the threshold. I thought this is a bit confusing as you would think expands means something else then drops right?
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U mean a noise-gate.
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dlx
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Posted : Nov 3, 2005 17:02
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Quote:
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U mean a noise-gate.
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Right, do i? thanks 
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
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Posted : Nov 4, 2005 17:51
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Quote:
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On 2005-11-03 16:58, EYB wrote:
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On 2005-11-03 15:59, dlx wrote:
From what i have understand so far, and An expander dramitically expands (drops) the signal to zero when it falls below the threshold. I thought this is a bit confusing as you would think expands means something else then drops right?
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U mean a noise-gate.
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no! its just a gate. noise gate combaine also lp filter.
now for the topic:
with 1:1 ratio u cannot expend nor compress. it simply do nothing.
compressor and expender is exacly the same only compressor is 1:more then 1 and expender is 1:less then one.. even minus.
example (in db):
sound goes like this (volume envelope)
-12 -7 -2 -7 -15
now compress:
-13 -9 -4 -9 -16
gate:
XX -7 -2 -7 xx
expend:
-15 -8 -2 -8 -18
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e-motion
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 4, 2005 18:45
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ok so i was right... one thing really common here is the "you're wrong, you must do this" newbie reply...
now can anyone answer my curiosity? i was trying to start a discussion here on where to use an compressor and an expander and what i get is a discussion on what is an expander... |
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EYB
Noized
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111
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Posted : Nov 4, 2005 18:48
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Quote:
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On 2005-11-04 17:51, tsabeat wrote:
Quote:
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On 2005-11-03 16:58, EYB wrote:
Quote:
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On 2005-11-03 15:59, dlx wrote:
From what i have understand so far, and An expander dramitically expands (drops) the signal to zero when it falls below the threshold. I thought this is a bit confusing as you would think expands means something else then drops right?
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U mean a noise-gate.
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no! its just a gate. noise gate combaine also lp filter.
now for the topic:
with 1:1 ratio u cannot expend nor compress. it simply do nothing.
compressor and expender is exacly the same only compressor is 1:more then 1 and expender is 1:less then one.. even minus.
example (in db):
sound goes like this (volume envelope)
-12 -7 -2 -7 -15
now compress:
-13 -9 -4 -9 -16
gate:
XX -7 -2 -7 xx
expend:
-15 -8 -2 -8 -18
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Thanks for correcting me
You are of course right.
Greetz
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UnderTow
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Posted : Nov 4, 2005 22:23
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Dynamics 101:
Compressor: Attenuates signals above the threshold according to the formula "level = level - level over threshold X ratio." If the ratio is smaller than 1, the device works as an upward expander. (Signals above the threshold get even louder). A compressor with a big enough ratio (a ratio of more than 20:1 or so depending who you ask) is called a limiter.
Expander: Attenuates signals below the threshold according to the formula "level = level - level below threshold X ratio". An expander with a ratio smaller than 1 is an upward compressor. A expander with a big enough ratio is called a gate or a noise gate. (They are the same thing).
Parallel compression: Mix of dry signal + compressed signal. Usualy one uses a low threshold with a small ratio. This achieves similar results to a an upwards compressor.
Tape compression: When feeding a signal that is "hot" enough to a tape device, saturation of the media occurs. This is a special type of compression because it has attack and release times of zero and thus preserves transients. These characteristics are impossible to achive with analogue hardware compressors due to the physical limitation of the electronics involved. These days this is achievable with digital processing with varying degrees of success. (Depending on who you ask).
Multiband-compression/expansion: Similar to the regular (broadband) type except that the audio signal is split into 2 or more frequency bands, proccessed seperately and then mixed back together. This allows seperate control of the dynamics per frequency band.
M/S compression/expansion: Similar to regular dynamics control except that a stereo signal is split into Mid and Side signals (mono and stereo information) to be processed seperately.
Now I was going to write about how I use these different techniques but I am totaly nackered and Scorb is playing tonight so I am going to catch some sleep before going out.
Tommorow in dynamics 102: Application of the various dynamic control processes and a guided tour of the local brewery. Totaly unrelated I admit but to make it worth your time, you can earn extra course credits by buying me copious amounts of alcohol...
Then again, I might get lazy and go straight to the brewery.
UnderTow |
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Styptic
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Posted : Nov 4, 2005 23:28
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Well written UnderTow
"..How would you know that things were good, unless there's something that wasn't good at all.." |
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sonik_akb
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Posted : Nov 5, 2005 03:07
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On 2005-11-04 23:28, Styptic wrote:
Well written UnderTow
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Sometimes I think nobody reads what I write on this forum... (I'm sorry about my ego) |
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e-motion
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 5, 2005 06:12
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i'm confused...
so a compressor is a compressor with a >1:1 ratio... an upward expander is a compressor with a 1:>1 ratio... a downward is a compressor which works below the threshold instead of above...
am i right? there are opposite opinions here.
anyway if i'm right i repeat my question... when do you use an upward expander and a compressor?
also repeat my answer:
i use a compressor on everything except hats where i use an upward expander. |
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