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Composition: where to start?
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seeker
Started Topics :
5
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5
Posted : Apr 12, 2013 19:20:50
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So let's say you have a good strong beat with percussion already made and now you want to compose the track and add all the leads, pads, fx...
What do you think is the best way to do this?
Do you start somewhere in the middle and build a composition outward from that point or do you lay out a wide part of the track simultaneously?
What is most important here? |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
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5292
Posted : Apr 12, 2013 19:36
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I start by rolling a joint.
Then stuff starts falling into place.
Just do whatever you feel like doing at the time. Working with your inspiration, instead of forcing your self to do something, is the best way to go.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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seeker
Started Topics :
5
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5
Posted : Apr 12, 2013 19:42
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wise words, but my problem is that i have a great idea, but i get lost in all the elements and in the end i have a mess. so i think i would need a good system of work to lay down a bit more complex compositions |
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makus
Overdream
Started Topics :
82
Posts :
3087
Posted : Apr 12, 2013 20:02
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Quote:
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On 2013-04-12 19:20:50, seeker wrote:
So let's say you have a good strong beat with percussion already made and now you want to compose the track
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well congrats then because you already started. now open a synthesizer you like (or switch on the hardware) hit play and just jam, tweak, listen and have fun. put fx on top, for better results. record, edit. thats it.
www.overdreamstudio.com |
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Xetni
Started Topics :
3
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68
Posted : Apr 12, 2013 20:09
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So far what yields the best results for me is to spend a lot of time making sounds. Tweaking synths, building device chains, mangling loops, just make lots of building blocks... and then I put them together, like LEGO 
Sometimes I make leads, sometimes FX, pads, atmos, etc. Then these sounds spark some kind of inspiration usually.
Sounds simple in theory hehe... but I'm still working on my first track.
Spending the most time on the sounds makes sure they are interesting and I have enough "spice" to use in the track. |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
8087
Posted : Apr 12, 2013 20:18
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dont compose much these day but wonder if some guys are as weird as me..i love the moment i turn my gear on and wait they get warm.. it s a ritual haha i love that moment before a good session.. i would still smoke i would rolll a phat one.. and just get ready  |
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
93
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2822
Posted : Apr 12, 2013 21:16
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No disrespect intended at all in this comment - but the guys that I see giving the advice of 'just do what inspires you' are usually the people who have been at it a long time and are comfortable with their tools and music production in general.
That might work for you, but if you're in your first couple years at this you don't have as good of a grip on what you can do, so IMO a bit of structure and learning can go a long way. I have noticed a more structured approach netting consistent returns on my studio time - a bit of piano and drum and theory practice every day in addition to studio time goes a long way towards giving you a more broad understanding of music which will help to develop your composition skills.
All that aside, once I've got the beat down I tend to start making a good 16-32 bar loop, then I put markers in my timeline every 16/32 bars and flesh out a super basic structure for a track...like 16 bar intro, 32 bar phrase, 4 bar breakdown, 64 bar phrase, 8 bar breakdown, 64 bar phrase etc. Then I start filling in those sections with new loops, then break the loops apart and re-arrange them. Seems to be a popular method for EDM.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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freez
Started Topics :
1
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111
Posted : Apr 12, 2013 21:28
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Great advice willsanquil!
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makus
Overdream
Started Topics :
82
Posts :
3087
Posted : Apr 12, 2013 21:35
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Quote:
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On 2013-04-12 21:16, willsanquil wrote:
No disrespect intended at all in this comment - but the guys that I see giving the advice of 'just do what inspires you' are usually the people who have been at it a long time and are comfortable with their tools and music production in general.
That might work for you, but if you're in your first couple years at this you don't have as good of a grip on what you can do, so IMO a bit of structure and learning can go a long way. I have noticed a more structured approach netting consistent returns on my studio time - a bit of piano and drum and theory practice every day in addition to studio time goes a long way towards giving you a more broad understanding of music which will help to develop your composition skills.
All that aside, once I've got the beat down I tend to start making a good 16-32 bar loop, then I put markers in my timeline every 16/32 bars and flesh out a super basic structure for a track...like 16 bar intro, 32 bar phrase, 4 bar breakdown, 64 bar phrase, 8 bar breakdown, 64 bar phrase etc. Then I start filling in those sections with new loops, then break the loops apart and re-arrange them. Seems to be a popular method for EDM.
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no disrespect either, but this is a bad advice. learn structure? tell that to shpongle, steve roach and frank zappa i consider 'just do what inspires you' MUCH better one, just do take it literally.
www.overdreamstudio.com |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
5292
Posted : Apr 12, 2013 21:35
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Fair enough. In my first days where the only synth I had was my Doepfer modular, I just sat in front of it with the manual opened next to me and patched modules in and out trying to fathom the whole synth programing process. When I found something. I liked, I'd hit record and create a massive chunk of different sounds. Then I would just spread these chunks of audio and sequence them into question and answer patterns. So try that, it will help you get better at programing and learning your tools and by sequencing your recorded sounds, you will come up with a good chunk of music to listen to later and decide where you want to go. There are loads of different ways of aproaching this, just sharing my early way of working.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
8087
Posted : Apr 12, 2013 21:43
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agree with nectarios start with what ever you want.. just make what you enjoy at the moment so you do it well,folow inspiration..
you can even start by the end of the tune if it s what you feel..
while sometimes you probably just like working on production,experimenting with bassline ect.. |
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
93
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2822
Posted : Apr 12, 2013 21:57
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Quote:
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On 2013-04-12 21:35, makus wrote:
no disrespect either, but this is a bad advice. learn structure? tell that to shpongle, steve roach and frank zappa i consider 'just do what inspires you' MUCH better one, just do take it literally.
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This is an interesting answer, because Posford is definitely the producer whose sound I covet the most.
Let's look at the background of some of those people you mentioned
Shpongle -
Simon Posford. Grew up in a musical household, was not classically trained but he is very well versed in quite a range of instruments that he taught himself over the years. In one of the interviews that I've seen where he talks about his youth and musical beginnings he said he 'was that guy in the band that was always saying oh can I have a go on your guitar or your drumset' - just taught himself a buttload of instruments
Raja Ram - Been a flute player since....the 60s?
steve roach - don't know him, his wiki doesn't have much in his early life besides he taught himself how to play the synth at 20
Frank zappa:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Zappa#Early_life
"By age 12, he had obtained a snare drum and began learning the basics of orchestral percussion.[12] Zappa's deep interest in modern classical music began[15] when he read a LOOK magazine article about the Sam Goody record store chain that lauded its ability to sell an LP as obscure as The Complete Works of Edgard Varèse, Volume One.[16] The article described Varèse's percussion composition Ionisation, produced by EMS Recordings, as "a weird jumble of drums and other unpleasant sounds". Zappa decided to seek out Varèse's music. After searching for over a year, Zappa found a copy (he noticed the LP because of the "mad scientist" looking photo of Varèse on the cover). Not having enough money with him, he persuaded the salesman to sell him the record at a discount.[16] Thus began his lifelong passion for Varèse's music and that of other modern classical composers."
Both Posford/Raja/Zappa put in many, many years learning the basics of musical structure and form before getting to the zany places they got to...and that's one of the things that I see new producers (and I DEFINITELY include myself in this....) avoid. I know its kind of trite, but you can't break the rules if you don't know them.
Basics. Ever wonder why so much EDM and particularly psytrance is noisy bullshit and is completely devoid of anything interesting? IMO its because everyone wants to look up a youtube video of how to make the sickest psy squelch instead of actually taking the steps to be a musician and learn what that means.
Again, I am in no way accusing you makus or you nectarious of being bad musicians, far from it - I'm just saying that in the context of someone like myself with no musical training background and only a couple years in the game...the advice of 'do whatever you want' isn't very compelling.
I have spent the last 3 years learning pretty much in that way, just following whatever I feel like and that certainly can and has worked to a certain degree...but personally I have noticed a shift recently when I give myself some structured time to practice and learn in addition to that unstructured time.
My 2c - I love you all <3
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
5292
Posted : Apr 12, 2013 22:07
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I should also stress that although I played drums, guitar and bass in bands since the age of 14, I never sat down to learn basic keyboard skills until the first days of playing the Doepfer. So by all means learn some basic keyboard skills while you are at it. Synths are instruments, learn to play some riffs on them.
Structure is not a bad advice, it just went out the window when I was in the studio, stoned 99% of the times.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
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8087
Posted : Apr 12, 2013 22:15
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structure can make you sound more formated..if you are inspired you just follow the flow and it should make intelligent progression.
there is a big part it s the art of trance..the science of the dancefloor ,making psychedelic music ,that what matter .. easy to forget that.
there is some period of time we dont feel it, or some guys even copy some released tune structure.. imo it s more a work on body and brain that is needed, cause it s all about trance state,sense of the dancefloor.. ect
some artists who made some great stuctured track that work great, it s a lot cause of the state they were in and the energy they had to share at that time i feel. if you look at old hallucinogen tracks ,maybe today it couldn t make one psytrance tune as good.. who know.. and he made a shit load of tune since then |
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
93
Posts :
2822
Posted : Apr 12, 2013 22:39
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On 2013-04-12 22:07, Nectarios wrote:
I should also stress that although I played drums, guitar and bass in bands since the age of 14, I never sat down to learn basic keyboard skills until the first days of playing the Doepfer. So by all means learn some basic keyboard skills while you are at it. Synths are instruments, learn to play some riffs on them.
Structure is not a bad advice, it just went out the window when I was in the studio, stoned 99% of the times.
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I am excited to come to that point - where I can just sit down, get stoned and flow and not think about what I'm doing but good stuff comes out.
That point in Poi took me...~4? years of practice where I would spend 30 minutes to 6 hours a day spinning. It is a wonderful feeling because you're not thinking about the mechanics of what you're doing, you're just moving or playing or painting or whatever...but you have to put in the hours first in order to unlock that capability.
I will occasionally glimpse that in my production, but as soon as I have to think about notes or chords or anything like that, its back to the fog of half comprehension half unknown and I have to think and not just act on my instincts...
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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