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Clipping Determination + Loudness debate
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Tomos
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 16, 2006 02:25
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I'm working on a track at the moment that occasionally goes into clipping (Cubase SX - the evil red light comes on) yet, when I repeat the part that supposedly clips, the light doesn't always come on.
Anyway, my main problem is that now my project has hit 64 lanes of audio I'm not entirely sure which part is clipping. Is there any way of determining which sound is? Or do I have to adjust them all and wait for the red light to go completely?
Despite turning down elements below clipping level my track seems SO much quieter to properly produced stuff, can anyone point me in the direction of a thread, or even post some tips on bringing up the level after the mix is complete? I guess that would come under the title of mastering, althought I know overall its more complicated than that.
Also, please read (or at least skim read) this article I found about mastering volume levels and tell me your thoughts.
http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/files/8A133F52D0FD71AB86256C2E005DAF1C |
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Mike A
Subra
Started Topics :
185
Posts :
3954
Posted : May 16, 2006 03:28
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What you need is compression - or more precise - limiting.
There are dedicated limiters for the job - Waves L2, BBE Maximizer etc.
Just about any compressor can do it if you set the ratio high enough.
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Tomos
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 16, 2006 03:44
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Thanks Mike
I thought I understood compression. But now I'm confused.. Compression can bring the volume higher than what would previously clip, or is it a percieved volume change?
I'm wondering if I should be putting more sounds in mono to produce more power ( ie - having bother speakers play an identical sound to increase volume) then just be creative with the panning. Wrong? |
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sideFXed
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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430
Posted : May 16, 2006 03:47
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your mix will never have the same loudness before post processing as "mastered" stuff does.
essentially try to get the mix sound as good as you can without any post processing. Keep in mind that leaving a headroom of let's say -3 db is healthy. This headroom will later be used for post processing.
Now for the clipping issue. Most of the time my levels clip when I apply not enough equalisation. Think about the structure of a psy trance track. The Kickdrum and the bassline dominate the low spectrum of your frequencies. So you do good highpassing other elements with help of an eq. Use eq with taste and experiment with it. It should be hard to clip elements like leads if you mix them at a reasonable volume.
When I get the sounds to share the frequency spectrum instead of dominating it it's easier to get away with 60 different elements.
Now for the post processing. With enough headroom left for this step you can try whatever you like. You could use an eq for balancing any ruff spots or give your material a certain sparkle in the high frequency, or use a compressor/multibandcompressor to change dynamics. Those two steps are not an obligation, as you can destroy a good mix or improve it.
Most of the time you get away with a limiter, that will bring up the levels without clipping. So set this limiter that the loudest sound will be -0.3 db and play around with the treshold of it. At this point it's not healthy to gain material too much, something below a +5 db gain is reasonable. In our example with -3db headroom it's better to use about +2.5-2.7 gain.
In other words a limiter is a compressor that's used with a high ratio like 12:1. When you set the treshold to eg -10 db, the signal needs to be +2 db to result in a 1 db gain (=-9db).
In todays loudness war you'll hear different opinions. A limiter destroys transients in your audio so it's not always intelligent to use such a brute limiter setting. Instead of gaining the material with a limiter (which you always want to use nontheless) you could use a simple compressor to make your stuff louder and use the limiter only for safety.
Be sure to always keep a backup of your song without any post processing applied. this way you can go back and experiment with different mastering chains. Your ears won't be always in the same condition and often become used to your song and you can't hear fine details.
 soundcloud.com/epsylohm |
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sideFXed
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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430
Posted : May 16, 2006 04:10
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damn I'm writing way to much but I really have to add some other workarounds to avoid clips.
You said that lowering the volume of individual parts make your mix quiet. Well that's a problem of its own, it hasn't to do with post processing. A compressor/limiter on the master bus won't change that.
What you can do besides eqing is to use compressors on individual parts to tame the transients and use dynamics for your advantage. For example leads, strings, vocoders or acidlines are very rich in dynamic changes. What you can do is using compression on individual parts. Use the compressor like in a rulebook. Set the treshold very low, set a ratio that will prevent obvious loudness changes (eg: 8:1) adjust attack and release and put the treshold back so it applies to your material. so when a lead is about -10 db, set the treshold to -9 (just an example okay!). At this part it's important to use your ears instead of math. What sounds good sounds good. This way your level meter won't jump around as much as it did before. if you do this with all the difficult parts, you have lots more space in the mix and the dynamics under control.
soundcloud.com/epsylohm |
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Tomos
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 16, 2006 06:08
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SideFXed.. theres no way I can write as much as you have as a thankyou. So I hope you'll accept just a few meaningful words for what you've writen 
Thanks man, top stuff!
Music is an ongoing process of continuous learning and it makes it a much more pleasant journey when you get responses like that! I'd like to master my own stuff, but as I'm more musical than I am scientific-technical I may have to leave it to someone else until I REALLY get my head round it 
Like my piano teacher says - music is for life - there are no quick shorcuts, practice practice practice. |
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sideFXed
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
22
Posts :
430
Posted : May 16, 2006 07:10
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you've got a piano teacher?! I recently started to throw away all the technical stuff and think more about it in "the piano way". There's also a good answer in this symbolic way to your topic. Think of your track like you're sitting in front of a piano. You got your bass keys on the left, chord land from c3-c4. just above you got the lead parts and on the top little touches. they make your music shine.
you can't squeeze anything into a song. there's a limit, in the piano way it's the keys, in psy it's the frequency spectrum.
soundcloud.com/epsylohm |
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Tomos
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
84
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Posted : May 16, 2006 09:41
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I've been learning the piano for years. I definately try and make everything as 'musically' as possible.
Not to say you can't write amazing music without learning an instrument, but it has its benefits.
At this stage of my production, I need to still think musically, but increase my technical knowledge. |
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
Posts :
5306
Posted : May 16, 2006 12:58
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as long as none of the seperate channels go above 0db , u should be fine , and just lower abit the master fader. compression might be the answer as well but it will change your dynamics (for good or bad) .
www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/ |
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Yuli
Retired
Started Topics :
40
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1660
Posted : May 16, 2006 15:57
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I advice always to stay on 0db with the master fader and not to rush to use all those maximisers and limiters on the master channel, only later on in order to master the track and to see the possible faults in the mix I would go and apply mastering FX to master channel.
The clipping red light on the Cubase SX master channel is merely a word of warning, it doesnt make cliiping tho unless u really out of order with some +8db or more, but the engine of the SX has a pretty powerful limiter in it that will cut pretty nicely cliiping that is below +6db
Having said that, I believe that there shouldnt be clipping @ the master channel at all, since all the limiting on the premastered output done by the SX limiter will cut frequencies and eventually for the master engineer will be less space to play with while producing the Mastered version of your song.
The most powerful tools that u got in your tracks are the Kicks and the Basses. You can start by starting your track with your kick @ -8db on its channel and see where u go from there. I myself have more than a few tracks that in the premastered mix the Kick drum sits around -10 or -11db. I believe that ofcourse every kick and his own but usually it is good to start with bass drum low in the mix, then you wont get the clipping that fast and your mix will be healthy and wide with lots of room for mastering application.
A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
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60
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3709
Posted : May 17, 2006 18:50
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it should be no problem spotting the clip.
cycle the section where the clip occurs and check all the tracks for peaks, stuff that reinforce other elements. you say that when you cycle it wont always clip, maybe its a Fx, delay or something thats overlapping and creates the clipping... check everything.
compress sounds that peaks alot, this way you wont have to lower the volume.. its often about compromising stuff, sometimes your lead sounds dull with the kind of compression it would need, so maybe dont compress it that much and pull something else down aswell..
have a tidy and organized project so stuff like this becomes easier..
often you can get by without even touching the mixer faders, just lower the velocity a little bit.. .
volume of individual notes is where you should start.
you cant have all the bang at one place.
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Adrenal Mode
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
308
Posted : May 17, 2006 20:13
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
Posts :
3709
Posted : May 18, 2006 01:34
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Adrenal Mode - Wicked, i didnt know it exists, i have the free inspector, but this one looks like it kicks ass..
Im sold, wonder what the price tag is, well 89 bucks, thats a good price if its a accurate analyser?
I mean check the featuers, i love the stereo analyser mode, sweet indeed  http://www.elementalaudio.com/Images/ixl_stereoanalyzer_full.jpg
do you use it Adrenal Mode?
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