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blatantly faking their "live set"
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FaceHead
FaceHead
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Posted : Dec 15, 2008 12:25
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ive been saying that for a while!! throw artistsless parties just put the dj setup away from the dancefloor and surround the floor with speakers and art. forced interactions and a lost point of focus = more fun for everyone.
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kameleonpangea36
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Dec 15, 2008 15:15
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On 2008-12-13 21:32, Hidroponik wrote:
i'm not a fan of pre-determined set lists either for many reasons. One of them being that if your pre-determined set isn't moving the dancefloor, you have to be able to adapt to the crowd and pick some better music or something more appropriate for your dancefloor's tastes.
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or have 10-15 different sets to choose from, so no matter what the crowd is wanting you can be ready.
regarding live sets.. keep in mind also that international travel is a pain in the ass with loads of equipment.
and i agree with mubali that the music is whats more important, but i hope that the artist isnt just standing around smoking cigs... which is exactly whats Extrawelt did at BOOM, but none-the-less was an amzing show...??
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Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Dec 15, 2008 20:23
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On 2008-12-15 12:25, FaceHead wrote:
ive been saying that for a while!! throw artistsless parties just put the dj setup away from the dancefloor and surround the floor with speakers and art. forced interactions and a lost point of focus = more fun for everyone.
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I partially agree with this. However, if you have djs that dance around as much as the people on the dancefloor it seems to generate more energy. I always think it's cool to see a dj who is as into the music as the people on the dancefloor are.
Putting the dj booth behind a curtain and having the dancefloor be a circle of speakers would be cool as well. http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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Axis Mundi
Axis Mundi
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Posted : Dec 15, 2008 22:02
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On 2008-12-15 08:16, mubali wrote:
He's my live set mentor too!!!! but I need more gadgets to do cool stuff with.
As far as live acts go, there are a few acts I've seen over the years that tried to do some really live stuff. More often than not, the live set didn't flow nearly as well as the tracks do... but I also am firmly convinced that trying to recreate complex arrangements on the fly is incredibly difficult to do by yourself. The thing is, I don't think anyone expects you to do everything on the fly, but if you don't do ANYTHING at all or worse, pretend to do something, that's much worse...
When I was in Israel, someone told me that my released material was much better than my live set and that I should have just done a push play set instead of trying to actually do something a bit more than just bobbing....
Honestly, when I go to see an act, it's to hear their music not really to see how many buttons they press while it's playing... Yes it's nice to add that type of showmanship to a performance, but for me I'd almost rather not even being able to be seen when I'm playing, not because I want to do nothing, but more that I am not supposed to be the center of your attention. The music is way more important than the person playing it. You've got psychedelic art all around you, wonderful people, closed eye visuals and incredibly loud music.... why the hell would you wanna be looking at me? Half the reason why I got the wrestling mask was because everyone was always staring at me, and even when I was fully triggering a whole bunch of stuff, the crowd wouldn't react any differently, so I figured I'd give them something to look at. I shouldn't have to say this, but this isn't Rock and Roll.... leave the stage to the actors and the pop wannabes... let's just play good music cause in the end, that's why you flew that artist out.
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Well said. Nicely put.
I was booked to play live in Spain last October, and because I was too afraid to bring my Virus, I tried to make up for it as best as I could by bringing as many of my samples and loops as I could and re-arranging/mixing them where I could. A lot of my "main" set, which was nearly three hours, was actually comprised of me DJing other artists' music, both from my home town and across the world, whom I respect most and whom inspire me. This is because I had played "unofficially" for about three hours the previous day for the exact same crowd of people and I did not want to serve the same meal I served the night before. Was it as "live" as it could have been had I had my synth? No, and at first I felt bad for it. (For the record, I was neither offered nor had I requested any more payment besides some food, a bed, and good times, which were really my important reasons, not the money, for wanting to be there anyway and I got what I asked for, and the whole thing was truly fondly memorable.) But the more I thought about it, the less bad I felt about it. The way i see it is: the truth is that it really isn't all about "ME", or "MY" music or moment, or whomever is up there playing at the time, nor should it EVER be. The crowd didn't care either that second night around... at 6:30 AM and 175 bpms, they were still all out there dancing right up through the next DJ that came on. There were other artists whom I encountered over there whose "live" sets were completely pre-arranged and determined. (To their credit, all of the music was created by them in the studio.) Would I have known any of that had I not gone behind the DJ booth to observe? No, and it doesn't matter. The music was awesome and that's what I enjoyed about it. It didn't make the music sound any less awesome to know that that artist pushed a few fewer buttons than I would have had it been me.
Mubali has it right... it really isn't all about "THE ARTIST" as the focal point of the entire night.
Some questions that come to mind, as a "devil's advocate" are:
If an artist is to bring his entire studio (or at least what he uses to produce) to every booking, who is going to pay for that? Does the artist have the right to ask for considerably more in payment to do so? If not, is the promoter expected to provide the specific gear the artist needs/uses? What about insurance? What if something happens to the gear? Who is responsible? If a synth gets busted in transit or rained on or shorted out during performance, does that mean the artist is SOL, too-bad-so-sad? How many promoters can afford all that? How many local trance scenes can support those kinds of capital without the inevitable losses from skyrocketing event costs? If the artist is able to meet the increased demands of the promoter but the quid-pro-quo is not there, what does that mean for the event? How would such a thing being the norm affect the frequency (no pun intended, lol) of events? Kri's statements and point are VERY valid, but they also raise a lot of questions. To use Kri's statement (and my own gear) purely as an example... my main synth, Virus TI, has only three outs (USB not counted). Would that mean I would have to bring another huge, expensive synth out into the wilderness? Or could I just make do with another extreme of, say, duct taping a mike to a pair of shakers or maracas as my fourth out? As was pointed out earlier, the defining lines quickly begin blurring. What about DJs? There are DJs (and artists) in my very home town, such as Brain Lizzard for example, who do absolutely amazing things with half a dozen CD decks, and who probably don't get as many bookings as they may deserve. There are also DJs and artists who rinse out seriously cool mixes on their laptop. Who am I to say which one is more "legitimate" based upon my knowledge of that person's media? These are all very legitimate questions that deserve serious consideration in such a topic. In my experience most of the promoters in the US (and much of Europe) cannot (or will not). As it is artists in our scene do not get paid what they deserve for their current effort most of the time. Yet most of them are still enthusiastically willing to get involved according to their own levels.
Again, like Mubali said, when did it turn into it being all about the person behind the altar anyway? Didn't it used to be all about the music? The overall experience? When did this start changing and why?
I'm certainly not trying to build a defense for faking a performance. People should be true to themselves (and others). But it seems the flow of the topic is coursing away from faking a performance to just what constitutes a bonafide "live" set and what doesn't. Overall this is a very healthy and needed topic in today's psy-trance world.
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Ascension
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Posted : Dec 15, 2008 22:20
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If you consider the fact that artists usually charge more for a live set compared to a dj set, as a promoter, you should expect something "more" on their end as well. That's just the business side of things, but that's what actually creates a party, not magic pixey dust.
http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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Axis Mundi
Axis Mundi
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Posted : Dec 15, 2008 22:26
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This is very true, but how much more should "more" be? Is an extra $100, or $200, or even $500 or $1K, enough to warrant bringing thousands of dollars more in gear? Who provides that gear, the artist or the promoter? And how does that affect what the artist deserves in compensation? In terms of quality of sound and energy, is it even worth it? Is scrutinizing the artist and the gear he has on stage more important than enjoying the music? Why is the specific artist or act, as an individual, REALLY that important?
edit: On a side note, it's a notorious fact that artists tend to demand a lot of promoters sometimes very very unnecessarily. Many times the artist/act fails to deliver a performance that compensates for his expectations. What happens when the tables are turned? If the promoter is to increase demands upon the artist is the promoter also willing, and able, to help compensate and facilitate the increased demands and higher standards, in this case because of the nature of the beast, before the artist has even performed a single note? |
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Ascension
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Posted : Dec 15, 2008 23:29
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Obviously the amount that they're being paid will not equal the price tag on the equipment they use. People who bring sound do not charge the price that the rig cost them, they charge a fraction of that amount because they get booked several times to use it.
Obviously this all can't be measured quantitatively because musical tastes differ, but I'll just leave it at what I originally said. I pay more for a live act rather than a dj set, I expect the live act to be something more (musically) than a dj set. I don't think that's unfair to expect. I also think the party goers should expect the same thing since the increased cost to the promoter can bump admission price up.
There's no strict guidelines to adhere to, but I think the "more" is just what a lot of people are looking for, even if they don't know exactly what it is. Conversely, more doesn't always mean better as I've heard live sets from artists who I did not enjoy as much as their album tracks, but atleast they put the effort forth to create something original. http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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labyrinth
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Dec 15, 2008 23:46
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this is indeed an interesting situation. what really is a 'live' performance anymore. i remember seeing acts back in the 90's and early 2000 that really did play 'live' -no laptop, using a hardware midi sequencer, several synths, sampler, drum machine, drum pads, actually using a full mixer desk to route everything. nowadays, we are debating wether the guy behind the laptop is actually doing anything or not, does it really matter? he could have all kinds of fx, samples, sounds, controllers routed, or he could just have a stereo track, either way its still a guy standing behind a laptop. very hard to tell what someone is actually doing unless they have some hardware gear. but then there's the problem, unless your a big act and can request equipment, you would have to lug your precious studio all over, and no one wants to do that. i think the 'live' aspect now is kind of lost, yeah it is cool to see the artist that created the music playing it, but i havn't really seen a true 'live' perfromance in a long time. but i'm not bitching about it, i know what to expect. same thing has happened to me, i used to play live with two synths, a drum machine, a sampler, and a ton of midi cables, now it's a recorder workstation, a sampler, a laptop, and midi controllers. i would be very nervous to travel with my roland jp-8000. if you really want live electronic music, you should check out some of the new electronica bands out there that are really trying to push the boundaries of live electronic music. it's just not really possible to make trance 'live', it's computer music, thats just how it is. djing is more 'live' than alot of live performances, and yeah laptop djs are kinda lame, setlists are not 
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kameleonpangea36
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Posted : Dec 16, 2008 00:14
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to totally recreate everything that goes into a track would be impossible, yet there are things you can do..
and the fact is you are in front of people, so you need to at least look busy, because the artists energy goes into the crowd.
i think the thing to do would be have less elaborate stages and more elaborate dancefloors. so the whole focal point wouldnt be on the music source, because it was just apart of the whole experience, to achieve this best though you need a concentrated space and a MASSIVE sound system.
with live sets in my opinion a couple things should be definites,
1. your own music - or a track of yours that was remixed
2. better quality sound - 24 bit
3. look like your doing something
but it seems alot of djs are getting away with faking dj sets... whats the difference with that and pressing play on a mix cd?
label: www.pureperceptionrecords.org
design: www.designsbymattbryson.com
soundcloud: http://soundcloud.com/kameleon-pangea |
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Axis Mundi
Axis Mundi
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Posted : Dec 16, 2008 01:18
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I remember seeing two distinctly "live" performances, both with tragically comical yet different stories.
One was back in '98 (I think) in Memphis by this guy named Ravealaska or something. I hadn't heard him before and didn't hear from him since unfortunately, but he was doing muisc in the chillout room of some dirty rave... anyway, he had all kinds of odd and crazy equipment, from home CD players to a couple of large synths, FX racks and V-drums, mixing board, as well as "normal" drums, rain sticks, finger cymbals, and things I couldn't name. He was creating ambient soundscapes and whatnot, and then all of a sudden, it sounded like a gargantuan bird flew just over your head from one side of the room to the other, and the hairs on your neck would stand on end. A number of, uhm, "affected" people were present, also, and I remember one in particular... every time he would look over from where he was sitting at Ravealaska, Ravealaska would ring a set of finger chimes he had centrally placed on top of his gear setup. The "affected" kid naturally got more and more nervous and looking at him more and more, until it got to the point where every few seconds, you were hearing the chimes, until the whole room was palpably on edge and the kid had to leave. After which, the chimes ceased and the psychoacoustic atmosphere immediately dropped back to a more soothing level.
That guy was cool. And about as "live" as I've seen.
The other guy was a transplant from Cali, to East Tennessee a few years later. No laptop, just two synths and the early Electribes on a keyboard rack. The first time I saw him at an event, right as he was starting his set he had some sort of attack and passed out, falling over his gear. I ran into him again at a show in Knoxville a couple of years later, and (poor guy) the exact same thing happened again.
I never heard from him after that.
Pangea I really like your idea of less elaborate booths and more elaborate dancefloors. I wonder how it would affect things if you just hid the DJ altogether and just focused all the deco effort on creating another dimension in the dance space. That's one thing that really stands out to me about blue spectral monkey's deco... he really transforms the entire room.
On the other hand, I certainly can't deny that a DJ/artist's personality and enthusiasm add a unique energy to it all that seperates the event from hiring a more mechanical jukebox.
On that small tangent, though, I really think deco artists deserve more credit. At least with their art they don't have to deal with conundrums like this one 
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Kane
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Dec 16, 2008 05:18
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On 2008-12-15 20:23, Ascension wrote:
Putting the dj booth behind a curtain and having the dancefloor be a circle of speakers would be cool as well.
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Lol..exactly what happened while it was raining at gmsf this year. 
You believe in the users?
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Ascension
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Posted : Dec 16, 2008 16:21
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On 2008-12-16 05:18, Kane wrote:
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On 2008-12-15 20:23, Ascension wrote:
Putting the dj booth behind a curtain and having the dancefloor be a circle of speakers would be cool as well.
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Lol..exactly what happened while it was raining at gmsf this year.
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Haha, except you could see Lauryn jumping up trying to look out
Although it's be kinda tricky with all the cords (duct tape to the rescue), a neat idea would be to have a completely circular setup with the dj booth in the middle. Run like a 6 point surround sound setup with the dj booth in the exact center and the dancefloor would form all around it. It would be really interesting to see how people react to it.
http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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Axis Mundi
Axis Mundi
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Posted : Dec 16, 2008 16:52
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scobbah
Kiriyama
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Posted : Dec 16, 2008 18:02
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Indeed, this is an interesting topic. I've seen several posts by users who seem to be fed up with the huge amount of attention focused on the performer. From my own experience, I think that at at least here in Europe, there has been a focal shift from the community to the performer. In other words, iconisation has served to make performers into something they're not; no one individual is worth more than the other and that goes for artists, too. What would a party be without the crowd, the decoration artists, the DJs, the sound engineers, the people working at the entrance and the bartenders making sure everyone has something to drink? Perhaps I'm nostalgically preoccupied with the idea of how things could be because of what I myself experienced in the 90s. Back then, everyone pitched in and made an effort to make every event something otherworldly. To give an example, some crazy Finns used to cross the Baltic Sea two weeks prior to a party just to spend time decorating the place and transform it into something completely out of this world. Not everything they did was good, though. A particular incident comes to my mind when they painted all the trees in florescent colours, which sadly came to fan the flames of deprecation in Sweden. 
The point which I'm trying to convey is that it is everyone's responsibility to make a party worth to remember. It seems unreasonable to do away with live performances, so perhaps we just ought to reconsider the status of the artist. Clichés often spring from something that used to be true and worth striving for, so please forgive me but I can't help reiterating that we're all One.
I'm fed up with seeing artists coked out of their tit faking their pre-arranged livesets, but one has to ask oneself why they can do it and get away with it. It may just be the case that someone paved the way for them, because, at some point, someone did put these artists on that pedestal of which we're not particularly fond.
I just got home from work so I'm a bit tired but I hope you get my point...
Aural transmissions from the deep forests of Sweden
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Ascension
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Posted : Dec 16, 2008 18:50
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Not a bad point Kiri. I always feel that whoever is playing must prove themselves during their timeslot to sort of "earn" a praise. It's hard not to feel excited when your favorite artist or dj steps up behind the decks, but that's because you have an expectation of them to perform as well as they have in the past. Obviously we all want to be nice and say "good job", but it's ok to say that you didn't like their set. It's all opinion in the end, no one is right or wrong. Being truthful in your opinion also helps the dj/artist really know how you/the crowd felt.
If you truly want parties/djs/artists to get better, you need not feel afraid to give them negative comments when necessary. Getting truthful feedback is the only way to grow and expand. It's worked for parties I've been to as well as helped me progress as a dj (and is already starting to help out as a producer). If I knew an artist I booked faked an act, I would definitely call them out on it (after their set for sake of the party). If no one does it there, why would they have any reason to change future acts?
I'm not claiming to be a guru on any of this (I'm not), but this just makes the most logical sense to me. http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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