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Bass frequency power shifts...
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NikC
BeatNik
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
601
Posted : Feb 6, 2007 06:47
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Woweee....
Can't believe that this thread has popped back again after a over a year (in which I've learnt rather alot more than I knew before... and with releases and a smattering of live sets under my belt now too, I bloody well hope I know what I'm doing eh  )!
In a way, I feel I can go back and try and answer my own question saying:
It's to do with resonance and the way the room responds to the sound.
But then again, I'd be doing my question an injustice compared to some of the replies.
I can't go as in depth (although I wish I could) as Undertow... who, by the way makes excellent posts... big source of great info, and a damn fine pwnage on this thread - cheers Undertow!
One thing I wonder, just due to my basic physics learning, is whether resonant frequencies of materials is a factor.
For example, when my speakers were on my desk often, on particular low frequencies I would hear my radiator vibrate... not because it was exceptionally loud... but because, as far as I could gather, there was one frequency that was equivalent to one of the radiator material's resonant frequencies.
Anyway... very funny seeing this again and good to see it being an interesting thread 
Cheers
  www.myspace.com/beat_nik |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
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1448
Posted : Feb 6, 2007 07:47
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NikC,
Certainly. Walls and other materials in your studio can resonate in sympathy with the frequencies in the sound. Desks are notorious for that.
This can be used to good effect at times. For instance, one form of bass trapping uses a convex sheet of thin wood which is dampened with soft material (usualy rockwool) thus absorbing the frequencies at which the piece of wood would resonate at.
It can also cause adverse effects like with your radiator. That is why speaker manufacturers use all sorts of methods to stop speaker enclosures from resonating. (Damping, rigid framing, shapes that are designed not to resonate etc).
Another thing that might allready have been mentioned is that speakers with reflex ports actually have a resonant frequency designed into them. This is done to extend the low-end a bit. The problem with this is that if, for instance, a note in your bassline falls exactly on this frequency (or a multiple of it) it will sound louder than a note slightly higher or lower in pitch.
If you try and EQ/compress/automate level/whatever that level difference away, it will sound wrong on any speaker with a different resonant frequency (or with no resonant frequency at all).
So if one has checked the other possible culprits that Colin mentions (key tracking on a filter that isn't set too 100% for instance), and you still hear big differences when different notes are playing, start by cheking on a different system before getting carried away with taming the "problem" that might not be a problem at all.
UnderTow |
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Pavel
Troll
Started Topics :
313
Posts :
8649
Posted : Feb 7, 2007 13:29
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This topic contains some of the most outrageous pseudo scientific bullshit I've ever read on this forum.
Good work Shamantrixx.
Everyone in the world is doing something without me |
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Seppa
Started Topics :
8
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485
Posted : Feb 7, 2007 19:34
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@makus
First I would play the track in another place to see if the problem is not mainly caused by the room.
I m pretty sure it will be the case , I 'd advise you to catch all the standing waves by doing a frequency sweep with a precision eq. then attenuate all resonant frequencies. I'm sure you can find a guide on line on how to do that properly
If the problem still occurs compression and eq is not the best way to sort this out in my opinion.
if you use a synth to make your bassline i suggest you actually work on the parameter of the synth.Always rectify the problem at the root.
I beleive in most the case people complain about a loss of bass while they shift the bassline so I can t help you much there. |
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NikC
BeatNik
Started Topics :
40
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601
Posted : Feb 7, 2007 19:45
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Firslty... yes agreed speaker testing is vital.
I.e. testing your track out on other speakers, as much as you can.
Secondly... to be honest- there's only so much you can do at the root i.e. the synth itself... specially if you're making a bassline.
To be frank, you aren't going to be able to remove unintentional resonance created by the filter envelope on your bassline without resorting to e.q.
In terms of compression, I see compression as less of an issue now. As someone said before - why compress when one has as precise envelopes as exist at the moment.
Yes- I can see that compression comes into play when you actually want to change the timbre, but in terms of your standard popadom bassline goes - do you really need it?
www.myspace.com/beat_nik |
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Seppa
Started Topics :
8
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485
Posted : Feb 7, 2007 19:50
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NikC
BeatNik
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
601
Posted : Feb 7, 2007 19:52
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@undertow
The vibrating desk is a classic - experienced that one many a time before hehe.
Also - i guess it's possible to check your acoustics in that way by sampling a bass tone and then playing it across the scales- the harmonic properties of the note should be the same so if you get the sense of one tone being more powerful then it's to do with room response.
I've also thought it may just be to do with the actual wavelength.
i.e. the perception of greater punchiness or change may just be to do with the note itself... perhaps a higher bassline will sound like it has more impact because there's a greater number of oscillations in the same space of time.
Perhaps, I've been thinking recently, when making a bouncing changing bassline that finding a strong fundamental (synth dependant) but leaving space on either side which still has impact is vital.
www.myspace.com/beat_nik |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
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5380
Posted : Feb 7, 2007 20:26
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NikC
BeatNik
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
601
Posted : Feb 7, 2007 20:36
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Ooh good idea...
In theory itd be possible to just do a simple test like that in soundforge with a pitchbent sinewave.
hehe reminds me of using 'clicks' (fast pitch bends) as the impulse in IR for convolution.
www.myspace.com/beat_nik |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
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8087
Posted : Feb 7, 2007 21:01
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Thanks for the links Adrenal Mode  |
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Seppa
Started Topics :
8
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485
Posted : Feb 8, 2007 06:16
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Nikc,
Can you please explain what do you mean by "Leaving space on either side "
is it a matter of using shorter notes..?
cheers |
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illusions
Erebus
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
626
Posted : Feb 8, 2007 07:05
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NikC: the only reason I use compression on my bass is to make up for what the synth envelopes did'nt do properly. Looking at a quick bounce of a bass done on any of my favourite bass synths usually shows the notes not really sustaining the way they should
Seppa: Yep, shorter notes, tighter envelopes.
Shamantrixx: I'm still waiting for those audio examples
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shamantrixx
Started Topics :
7
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549
Posted : Feb 8, 2007 16:37
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Don't hold your breath. If you're too lazy to do a simple export test don't expect that others will do it for you. At least I'm not going to do so! Why? Well because I find that information is all that smart person really needs. Seeking proof is considered to be an act of ignorance in every sharing community. Even sharing information seems like a waste of time on this forum. It has become a mainstream forum where people prefer presets and step wise tutorials to make (input your favorite artist) sounds.
Further on, many people really don't hear the difference between 16, 24 and 32 bit files or 44,1, 48 and 96 kHz samplerate. Many people even don't hear the difference between mp3 in 128, 256 and 320 kbps... Many soundcards have lousy converters and make a lousy sound regardless to the bit or sample rate. So really the only way to go is to test YOUR ear on YOUR gear. Or if you prefer to believe instead of having direct experience... be my guest!
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
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1448
Posted : Feb 8, 2007 18:28
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Chicken!
UnderTow |
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illusions
Erebus
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
626
Posted : Feb 8, 2007 18:31
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No suicidal tendancies here, thanks. Have been waiting for someone to affirm what your saying, or you atleast driving the point home to the many disbelievers of your theories you've managed to collect across the forum.
I'm certainly not asking for any presets, or discussing whether my ears can pick up differences in varying audio file bitrates.
'Seeking proof is considered to be an act of ignorance ...'.
Ok, thats where I stop speaking to you. Goodbye |
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