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balanced or unbalanced signal route?
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Outolintu
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 19, 2011 01:49:37
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soo, i've never really bothered to think about this crap before but now it's time to do so:
i take a mono synth (let's say sh-101) and plug it with a 1/4" mono jack cable into a balanced input (let's say a mixer) and continue plugging the mixer's balanced output with a 1/4" stereo jack cable into a soundcard's balanced input...
is it a balanced or unbalanced signal route? 
if i got it right it's unbalanced because the 1st connection is unbalanced and it affects the whole chain. if this really is the case does it actually matter anymore what kind of a cable (mono=unbalanced, stereo=balanced) i use between the following balanced ports?
also the norldead manual only says: "all signal cables used with the nord lead must be shielded". does shielded=balanced?
the manual doesn't inform me about the lead's outputs. i've always thought that all instrument outputs (incl. synths) are unbalanced?
so why make it so friggin difficult to get a balanced signal route? i hope i'm not getting something here
  "no one ever sweats on a plug-in" -moby |
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demoniac
Demoniac Insomniac
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Posted : Nov 19, 2011 06:31
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Outolintu
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 19, 2011 12:08
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from what i've gathered there actually are some synths with balanced in/outputs like virus ti and some newer roland (like fantom) and yamaha models...
"no one ever sweats on a plug-in" -moby |
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monno
Grapes Of Wrath
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Posted : Nov 19, 2011 12:35
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In most cases the signal would be unbalanced up to the point where the line receiver (input) of the mixer if the transmitting device itself is unbalanced. (in many cases a receiver is used that can accept both types of input)
After that the signal would be treated as a normal balanced one including the output. This can be confirmed with measurements or a look at the mixers signal flowchart
Most modern equipment works with a balanced signal path throughout but it depends on the topology of the receiving device how this is implemented. Some devices de-balance and operate un balanced throughout the device until at the output section where the signal is balanced to ensure good transmission over long cable runs.
A shielded cable does not mean a balanced one per default and as i recall the nord is not what i would define as a balanced output synth (balanced connections often operate on +4db(x) as opposed to unbalanced -10db(x) connections and my nordlead is not that loud ( i could be wrong in which case it´s just a case of badly implemented techniques) From my days of sound engineering we would as a rule always use line drivers when musicians brought synths because of excessive cable runs in a venue constructed for live sound. In a studio type situation with clean power and no ground loops unbalanced cables can just as well be used provided short cable runs throughout.
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Outolintu
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 19, 2011 14:46
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Outolintu
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 19, 2011 15:48
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oh yeah, and the main point being: is there any point in buying stereo jacks for all the connections between patch bay and audio interface if the 1st connections (synths>patch bay) is already unbalanced?
about the cable length: i've heard this before but ofcourse it's always the balanced connection that is the shortest as both patch bay and audio interface are in a rack and most of the other equipment with the unbalanced connections are scattered around the work place 
but it should be ok as long as the cable length is under 5m, right?
"no one ever sweats on a plug-in" -moby |
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Suloo
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 19, 2011 16:29
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Why do you care? How many meters cable way do you need to place?
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 19, 2011 19:26
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i had issu already in the past with using mono insteed of trs cable on balanced i/o( volume drope,strange??? maybe it was something else dunno but as soon as we changed the cable to trs one the volume was back to normal...) |
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Upavas
Upavas
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Posted : Nov 25, 2011 02:59
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Quote:
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On 2011-11-19 16:29, Zork wrote:
Why do you care? How many meters cable way do you need to place?
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+1
Also there are these things you can use to unbalance balanced sounds and balance unbalanced sounds, kind of impedance transformer! I recall using this before... it was basically a kind of TS to XLR plug, with a coil inbetween... and it does make a difference... what they are called and where to get them... no idea, but we did have these things in stock...
Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
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monno
Grapes Of Wrath
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Posted : Nov 25, 2011 13:33
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Here´s a pdf that sums it up more nicely than i can myself and it has pretty pictures too 
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/an/an003.pdf
Long story short unless you want to use isolation transformers or other such stuff have a look at the minimal approach in that pdf for un balanced to balanced connections. It does require a little diagram inspections skills, but it should not prove too complex. I use a mix of balanced and unbalanced connections and i cannot say it has had an impact on the quality of sound. With a lot of hardware in the studio it can become rather pricey using isolation transformers for every unbalanced connection needed. Short unbalanced cable run into balanced equipment is the usual way of doing it. Even quite long cable runs can work no problem, but it depends how much interference is around you in general. Cables turning into antennas etc.
Mastering available here:
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http://www.myspace.com/onkeldunkelownz
http://www.parvati-records.com |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 25, 2011 20:31
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here we balance the signal when using unbalanced synth but not really for getting ride of noise,for the coloration with the transformers of di boxes, digital synth like the nord can really benefits from it |
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Outolintu
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Dec 1, 2011 00:45
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monno, thanks for your well balanced input on the matter!
"no one ever sweats on a plug-in" -moby |
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Larrikin
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Dec 18, 2011 05:46
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alajarvela
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Dec 18, 2011 23:15
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Just came to say two things
1. Outolintu imma waiting for your new music  So you were Haltya with Tommi or is it more his project than yours? A fourth haltya album would be soooo nice <3
2. Monno bimmelims web sider duer ikk also, du har nice musik på SC |
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Outolintu
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Dec 18, 2011 23:48
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Quote:
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On 2011-12-18 23:15, alajarvela wrote:
Outolintu imma waiting for your new music So you were Haltya with Tommi or is it more his project than yours? A fourth haltya album would be soooo nice <3
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thanks! 
"Haltya was founded by Pelinpala and Outolintu to be a loose collaboration with occasional surprise guest stars... After two 12 inches and two albums together Outolintu desired to continue exploring music by himself and left Haltya in the caring hands of Pelinpala in 2005."
"no one ever sweats on a plug-in" -moby |
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