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Backbeat in Psy / Dance music
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the daleks
The Daleks
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584
Posted : May 9, 2008 07:46:35
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has anyone tried this? I did some experiments, and it sounds kind of wierd
we are used to the K-sn-K type pattern in dance music, but I found that backbeat mixed with breakbeats makes this kind of rolling drumbeat. but with the forcefull Whack-Whack of the snare on the backbeat, i don't know... is it too much? am i driving myself insane by listening to these kinds of loops for minutes on end, and the fact that I am getting used to it, and find it pleasant at times, a kind of warping of the personality??
I would like to hear feedback from other producers? has anyone tried this, or did they come to the conclusion that it was just too much....
your opinion is appreciated!
  Gamma Riders EP out now on iTunes and Amazon.com!
The Daleks : www.myspace.com/thedaleksupreme
A-Boys : www.myspace.com/akibaboys |
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mubali
Mubali
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71
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2219
Posted : May 9, 2008 09:10
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Here's an idea...
Take that backbeat and move it either forward or backwards by 1-2 16th notes so that the snare on the breakbeat hits either before or after the normal snare that you put in... Works for me a lot... 
Also, think about layering your snares. It's a trick heavily used in breaks and dnb.... Take a powerful snare sample that has more of a lower tone and layer on a breakbeat with a higher sharper snare and low cut the loop a bit higher than you normally might... Sometimes I'll layer 2 or 3 simple loops to make something complex out of it.
An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
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the daleks
The Daleks
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34
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584
Posted : May 9, 2008 09:20
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hey Mubali
thanks for the tip and ideas... I am all into the layering thing- at times I have 3-4 loops going to for percussive effects, and think we are on the same page with this
but what I am talking about is specifically and purposefully using the backbeat. like k-s-rest-s
is this acceptable in dance? maybe it hasnt been done before... could it be used to fuse say, a rock n roll type vibe with a dance vibe? these are maybe more rhetorical questions, especially if it hasnt been done before, then we are in the realm of experimentation perhaps...
or is it too counterintuitive to what our brains are trying to determine as the rhythm/meter, resulting in confusion?
Gamma Riders EP out now on iTunes and Amazon.com!
The Daleks : www.myspace.com/thedaleksupreme
A-Boys : www.myspace.com/akibaboys |
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Jikkenteki
Jikkenteki
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20
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356
Posted : May 9, 2008 10:25
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I follow the"if it sounds good it is good" theory. I think a lot of artists and dj's generally tend to treate the crowd as a lot stupider than it really is. as long as an idea flows in a musically logical way, the listener will get into it. For example for years I've been hearing that odd time signatures just won't work in dance music and tracks must be 4/4, but I find that is complete b.s. The most dance floor intensive track on my first album was in 7/4 time and live no one stops dancing (nor do they stop for the one that alternates in a 6,6,6,8 pattern). In fact they usual tend to go more nuts on the floor.
In my opinion, all dance music needs is a dance-able "pulse" somewhere that is readily identifiable for the listener. In 95% of dance music today that "pulse" is the kick drum, but it doesn't HAVE to be the kick. Breaky back beat type stuff is perfectly OK in my opinion. As long as there is a steady identifiable rhythm somewhere and it flows in a musical way, there is nothing to worry about.
New Album: Jikkenteki - Flights Of Infinity
Available for free at http://www.ektoplazm.com/free-music/jikkenteki-flights-of-infinity/
PAR-2 Productions http://www.par-2.com |
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the daleks
The Daleks
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34
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584
Posted : May 9, 2008 10:31
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7/4, thats pretty interesting, i'd like to hear that
i think what you said just nailed it for me... this is the question then: is the kick pulse plus the 2 backbeat pulses of snares too much? you get 2 kind of contrasting pulses then- the kick plus the backbeat rhythm. not contrasting, but separate, but still 4/4, but like a counter-rhythm. I just want to make sure that adding a backbeat to dance isnt breaking some kind of cardinal rule, like cats and water or something.
the thing is it sounds good to me, but I have been told that things that I thought sounded good didnt actually sound that good, or perhaps too twisted to be danceable. my wife is usually giving good advice like this, so I will ask her opinion also
Gamma Riders EP out now on iTunes and Amazon.com!
The Daleks : www.myspace.com/thedaleksupreme
A-Boys : www.myspace.com/akibaboys |
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Jikkenteki
Jikkenteki
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356
Posted : May 9, 2008 12:29
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Actually this is making for a more interesting discussion than I had first thought.
Good rhythm is always a combination of "pulses". Its how they interact together that makes music interesting, boring, repeatative, etc. I've played guitar for many years and went to school for it formally, but before that I originally played drums and have always maintained a strong interest in the percussion side of the world. While in the trance-realm of things everything most everything seems to focus on the old kicks on 1,2,3 &4, with the snares on 2 & 4 and the open hihat on the upbeats between, one thing I have been trying to focus on the last couple years is thinking more like a drummer in my percussion work.
A rhythm section you can think of as having different pulses for different reasons. For example you could loosely say we have ..."a tempo pulse", "a driving pulse" and "an energy pulse" (although in reality certain parts might play multiple roles). In addition you have "accent" parts which in trance almost always equal cymbal crashes or other bang sounds on the 1 when a part changes.
In traditional drumming we might look at the kick as the "tempo pulse", the snare as the "driving pulse" and the hi-hat or ride cymbal as the "energy pulse". Trance works in much the same way although the kick doubles over into driving pulse to some degree. The snare's drive is especially important as it changes how "fast" a track feels like it's going without changing the tempo. Some common examples...
S = snare hit
Slow feel (ballads, downtempo, etc)
Snare hits on 3
1_2_3_4
____S
Building feel (build ups)
Snare hits on 1 & 3
1_2_3_4
S___S
Standard driving feel
Snare hits on 2 & 4
1_2_3_4
__S___S
Changing your snare patterns like this will radically change the "drive" of that section regardless of whether the kick changes or not. Making the cymbal work busier or sparser also increases or decreases the energy of the part it is over.
As an example, here a couple clips from what will be the first track on my next album.
http://www.par-2.com/choons/jikkentekiblindsidedrhythmstuff.mp3
In the first section until 0:15 you have the "slow feel" with the snare on 3. Starting on 16 I introduce a loop that replaces the snare hit with the "standard drive" 2 & 4 hit, which makes the piece suddenly feel faster and more active, even though the kick hasn't really changed.
At 0:27 we jump ahead several minutes into the drive with your standard 1,2,3,4 kick and 2 & 4 snare beat. From the break starting at 0:36, I wanted to shift to a break beat type feel and have the track "speed up" by creating a double time feel without actually changing the tempo. After the build I basically treat what would have been an 8th previously as a quarter note, thus making the track feel twice as fast. However, doing a normal 2 & 4 snare here would suddenly push the track into the gabber hardcore area, which I didn't want at all, so the balance out the sudden double time feel, I left the previous 2 & 4 snare hits where they were, but in the double time feel, the fall on the 3 beat, which is the "slow feel", so this slows the double time feel down to some degree to a more managable feel.
To go back to the break beats discussion with this section, I played all the kick and snare hits live over the course of the this whole section of the song to purposely avoid making them feel like just a repeating loop. This almost completely removes the "tempo pulse" function that the kick usually has, but instead I have the strong bassline combined with the ride cymbal work function as the "tempo pulse". In the kick work I only made sure that a kick always fell on 1 and that somewhere there was always a snare like hit on 3, which coupled with the bass and snare work keeps an obvious "pump" going that the listener can follow, while the main kick and snare work continue to change to provide a lot of variation to the ear and additional changes in the ride cymbal work, adding hi hat hits and such serve to continue to increase the energy as the section continues (although a lot of that has been cut off in this clip). Also in keeping with the "thinking like a drummer" I've having most of the crash cymbal work be like an actual drummer, using crash hits to emphasize things that are going on in the melody and such and generally doing a hell of a lot more that just banging on 1 all the time. I think this adds even more variation and energy to a track.
As for the 7/4 track check out "Stepping Forward" on the player here. The version here is a couple versions before the only that made it to the album, but its 7/4 through out. http://www.myspace.com/par2jikkenteki
I'm sure there were several other points I wanted to make, but they have disappeared off in the myst.
New Album: Jikkenteki - Flights Of Infinity
Available for free at http://www.ektoplazm.com/free-music/jikkenteki-flights-of-infinity/
PAR-2 Productions http://www.par-2.com |
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pilgrim
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
19
Posts :
218
Posted : May 9, 2008 12:51
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Nice one Jikkenteki!
Good discussion... |
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
Posts :
5306
Posted : May 9, 2008 15:51
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psylevation
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
52
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841
Posted : May 9, 2008 18:09
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Quote:
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On 2008-05-09 10:31, the daleks wrote:
.... I just want to make sure that adding a backbeat to dance isnt breaking some kind of cardinal rule, like cats and water or something....
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I just thought I'd let you know that my cat LOVES to play in water  If that helps at all 
~Airyck~
~Unoccupied Mind ~
Psyowa! |
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the daleks
The Daleks
Started Topics :
34
Posts :
584
Posted : May 9, 2008 19:30
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Quote:
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On 2008-05-09 18:09, psylevation wrote:
Quote:
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On 2008-05-09 10:31, the daleks wrote:
.... I just want to make sure that adding a backbeat to dance isnt breaking some kind of cardinal rule, like cats and water or something....
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I just thought I'd let you know that my cat LOVES to play in water If that helps at all
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most odd indeed...
Gamma Riders EP out now on iTunes and Amazon.com!
The Daleks : www.myspace.com/thedaleksupreme
A-Boys : www.myspace.com/akibaboys |
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the daleks
The Daleks
Started Topics :
34
Posts :
584
Posted : May 9, 2008 19:44
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JT, thanks for the detailed explanation and sound samples.
btw, the 7/4 makes sense now, I can see what you did - that quick little double kick at the end making it 7/4 nice!
So if I have you right
Standard driving feel
Snare hits on 2 & 4
1_2_3_4
__S___S
and if the 2&4 is the backbeat, thats perfectly normal then?
what would be an example of the standard rock and roll backbeat? like Johnny B Good... would kick would be less relevant, i.e 1 and anywhere else, and if as long as the 2 and 4 were the snare that would be the 'backbeat rhythm' in rock and roll? so does changing the role of the kick i.e. into the driving rhythm have implications for how the backbeat is then perceived?
when i mixed a 4/4 kick over the backbeat drum rhythm it suddenly seemed easier to play guitar to but at the same time, seemed wierd for dance. i felt myself pulled in 2 directions. is this some kind of psychoacoustic referencing?
i'll work on a sample to post what i mean shortly
Gamma Riders EP out now on iTunes and Amazon.com!
The Daleks : www.myspace.com/thedaleksupreme
A-Boys : www.myspace.com/akibaboys |
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Spycht
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
194
Posted : May 10, 2008 00:28
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I personally hate a snare on beats 2 and 4 for more than 16 bars. Drives me nuts. Lean the snare on beat 4 back a 16th and use it to drive into the kick... or put it a half note after the 3rd kick for a groovy roll... or use a giant hat or fucked up noise instead of a snare. When I think of snares I think of marching band.. not psychedelic trance. Just my 4 cents. |
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Jikkenteki
Jikkenteki
Started Topics :
20
Posts :
356
Posted : May 10, 2008 03:04
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Quote:
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On 2008-05-09 19:44, the daleks wrote:
So if I have you right
Standard driving feel
Snare hits on 2 & 4
1_2_3_4
__S___S
and if the 2&4 is the backbeat, thats perfectly normal then?
what would be an example of the standard rock and roll backbeat? like Johnny B Good... would kick would be less relevant, i.e 1 and anywhere else, and if as long as the 2 and 4 were the snare that would be the 'backbeat rhythm' in rock and roll? so does changing the role of the kick i.e. into the driving rhythm have implications for how the backbeat is then perceived?
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the 2 & 4 snare is sort of the staple of upbeat popular Western music (as is the 3 snare a staple of slower Western music). Most people subconsciously understand these changes. One of the things that makes percussion interesting is changing and messing with such things. adding or changing snare hit locations (note I have been using the term snare for any sort of banging sound that functions in the role a snare drum would on a traditional drum kick) to add "groove" elements, etc. You can also apply similar ideas of beat location, beat shifting and general "busy"-ness to things like hi hats, congas, and of course the kick.
The "pulse" categories I mentioned before are somewhat fluid depending on genre (not to mention how the drummer wants to play with those roles). For example in most heavy metal, the snare tends to function has the "time keeping" hit and the kick does interesting variation work, while in jazz, often its the complete opposite where the kick keeps the time and the snare work is were the experimenting goes on (I remember back in high school being part of a rather heated discussion between a metal drummer customer and an older jazz playing salesman at a drum shop about the role of the snare). In trance the 1 through 4 kick is standard convention on, so to do anything else will often make it sound like something other than trance, but I figure if its good music it shouldn't really matter. But this again is heading towards the discussion that most promoters, artists, djs and labels tend to assume their audience is dumber than it really is and therefore always play it safe with the same old 4/4 downbeat boom boom music. For the record there is nothing wrong with said music either. It works for a reason, but I think artists could definitely make some more musically interesting music even within those confines (I try to, but whether I am successful or not is another discussion).
Anyways, these rules are all here to be broken. Understanding how and why such "rules" developed is mostly understanding how and why the conventions for your genre of choice developed, for the knowledge of understanding now people's ears have been trained in Western popular music, and therefore giving you some clues how you can completely mess with those rules, while still leaving other elements in place to continue to make your work musical and, in our case dance-able.
New Album: Jikkenteki - Flights Of Infinity
Available for free at http://www.ektoplazm.com/free-music/jikkenteki-flights-of-infinity/
PAR-2 Productions http://www.par-2.com |
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the daleks
The Daleks
Started Topics :
34
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584
Posted : May 13, 2008 10:57
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thanks for the detailed explanation
puts my mind at ease, so I will keep at it
for the record in my post above, I made a mistake. in dance music and house the snare is common on the 1&3 or just the 3 for the boom-whack-boom type rhythm. by shifting it to the 2&4 the backbeat seems to be an interesting effect.
Gamma Riders EP out now on iTunes and Amazon.com!
The Daleks : www.myspace.com/thedaleksupreme
A-Boys : www.myspace.com/akibaboys |
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shellbound
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
14
Posts :
601
Posted : Feb 27, 2009 22:16
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this is really nice and a great explanation. i notice i tend to do things like this instinctively, but it's really cool to read it broken down like that.
'flights of infinity' is a really nice album too... |
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