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Avoiding clipping on the master
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Getafix
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Posted : Apr 17, 2006 16:28
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I'm still kind of confused when it comes to the final mixdown stage as i've read different opinions..Some say its better to leave the master fader untouched since apparently you lose 1 bit of quality for every 6db you put down the fader by..Others say its ok to put down the fader..
In some of my projects i have to put down the master by 10db and it still clips at some points..To investigate this further i opened up a mastered track from a VA compilation in soundforge..When i did the analysis it showed that there was audible clipping at several points! Is this normal?!
Finally i'd like to know what measures can be taken to avoid clipping without having to touch the invidual or master faders..Can i route my synths to a limiter or something? Thanks for the help!
  http://www.soundcloud.com/getafixmusic |
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Colin OOOD
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Posted : Apr 17, 2006 16:40
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If you're using Cubase SX and only if you're bouncing down internally at 32-bit float you can clip the master all you like without affecting the quality of the final audio file; when you open it up in Sound Forge it might look very clipped, but that's just because audio editors aren't designed to look at audio with a level greater than 0dBFS. If you normalise it the level will be reduced and you'll get all your peaks back.
HOWEVER if you're listening to the track and it's clipping, you will get audible distortion - this is because floating-point audio needs to be converted to fixed-point in order to be played back through your soundcard's fixed-point D/A converters, and fixed-point audio has no headroom over 0dB.
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| apparently you lose 1 bit of quality for every 6db you put down the fader by..Others say its ok to put down the fader.. |
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Not strictly true... you lose roughly 6dB's worth of detail for every unused bit in the final master audio file, which is why it's a good idea to mix down as hot as you can without clipping. Simply lowering the master fader to avoid clipping will not reduce the resolution of the mixdown, as long as you don't lower it so much that you're only using half the available headroom.
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
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Get-a-fix
Getafix
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Posted : Apr 17, 2006 16:55
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Thanks for the reply colin, i am using Cubase SX..So if i undertood correctly i should do the mixdown at 32 bit float and then just normalise to 0db in soundforge? This will not affect the quality in any way?
P.S. My projects are all in 24 bit so does making a mixdown in 32 bit make any difference?
P.P.S. If the mix is at 0db after normalising is there still a need for a limiter like L2?
sorry for all the dumb questions! http://www.soundcloud.com/getafixmusic |
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Colin OOOD
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Posted : Apr 17, 2006 16:59
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If you're mixing down at 32-bit float you only need to normalise afterwards if the level goes over 0dBFS, otherwise there is nothing to be gained, as 32-bit float audio has 24-bit resolution no matter what its actual level is. Be aware that if you're preparing your final mixdown and clipping the master, you will hear the clipping and it might help you make bad mix decisions, although it won't actually appear itself in the audio file if you record the final mix at 32-bit.
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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Get-a-fix
Getafix
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Posted : Apr 17, 2006 17:10
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Hmm i'm even more confused now! For example suppose there's this project where if i leave the fader at 0db the main bus shows 12db of clipping..This means that when i mixdown at 32bit the peaks will still be hitting 12db right..So i would need to normalise?
I cannot touch individual faders since the mix seems balanced this way..But on the other hand it clips! http://www.soundcloud.com/getafixmusic |
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Colin OOOD
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Posted : Apr 17, 2006 17:14
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Ok, you edited your post as I was writing my reply...
PS. Yes it does, as this will reduce the effect of quantisation noise which is created eg. when you change the gain of a fixed-point audio file (by moving its channel fader away from 0dB) or process it by adding a plugin, or when you mix lots of different audio files together at different levels.
PPS. Your mix might sound quiet even though it peaks at 0dBFS. It all depends on what you've been working on, and what you need it to sound like. L2 is a good way to raise the overall level a little without changing the sound too much, but using it on its own is no substitute for a session spent on post-production - even if you do it yourself.
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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Colin OOOD
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Posted : Apr 17, 2006 17:17
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Quote:
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On 2006-04-17 17:10, S-Cube wrote:
Hmm i'm even more confused now! For example suppose there's this project where if i leave the fader at 0db the main bus shows 12db of clipping..This means that when i mixdown at 32bit the peaks will still be hitting 12db right..So i would need to normalise?
I cannot touch individual faders since the mix seems balanced this way..But on the other hand it clips!
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If you don't mind hearing 12dB of clipping on playback, you could mix down at 32-bit and normalise afterwards to 0dBFS. In this case normalising will reduce the overall level of the sound file.
You could equally lower the master fader by 12dB and end up with a (pretty much, depending on how accurate you are with the fader) identical end result.
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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Get-a-fix
Getafix
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Posted : Apr 17, 2006 17:25
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Colin OOOD
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Posted : Apr 17, 2006 17:27
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sy000321
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Apr 17, 2006 17:29
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Quote:
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On 2006-04-17 16:28, S-Cube wrote:
To investigate this further i opened up a mastered track from a VA compilation in soundforge..When i did the analysis it showed that there was audible clipping at several points! Is this normal?!
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could it be bacause there is no standart of determining when a digital signal is clipping?
supposedly clipping is when the signal reaches over odbs, but no recorded digital signal can do that, so some tricks are used.
i believe there are some standards implemented by some manufacturers, but not commo nto whole the industry. for some 2 samples at 0dbs is marked as clipping, for others 3 samples at 0dbs is clipping, etc
so when one software says it clips, another software may say it doesnt
joao
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Colin OOOD
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Posted : Apr 17, 2006 17:32
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Fingax
Cosmic Station
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Posted : Apr 17, 2006 17:39
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i always thought that in digital systems 0 dbFS was the very maximum you could reach and everything above this is digital distortion. Normalizing a clipped wav its crasy idea but if the principle is to bring back the levels in a proportional way, reducing gain/volume would do the same if aplied in the master fader no? avoiiding normalizing stuff
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Get-a-fix
Getafix
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Posted : Apr 17, 2006 17:47
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^^
Well yeah i think i will just put down the fader in future, something which i was hesitant to do because i thought it affected the sound quality adversely..
On the otherhand i will make future mixdowns in 32 bit..
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Trip-
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : Apr 17, 2006 18:19
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Quote:
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On 2006-04-17 17:39, Fingax wrote:
i always thought that in digital systems 0 dbFS was the very maximum you could reach and everything above this is digital distortion. Normalizing a clipped wav its crasy idea but if the principle is to bring back the levels in a proportional way, reducing gain/volume would do the same if aplied in the master fader no? avoiiding normalizing stuff
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0dBFS is the maximum in the digital domain. Cubase must be doing something when it's rendering at 32bit float.
Now doing this, and then lowering the overall file versus lowering the output is an interesting point -> I'm sure it's not the same when you do it that way and the other.
As for the topic,
S-Cube,
Level your mix so that it doesn't clip too much - 2,3,4 dbs peaks over 0 is ok, as long as you can take the master fader down by same amount of the peak level.
at 10dB peak, even the unheard distortion will become heard. Seems like you need to do some leveling.
cheers.
Crackling universes dive into their own neverending crackle...
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Colin OOOD
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Posted : Apr 17, 2006 18:29
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