Maine Coon
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Posted : Aug 21, 2011 10:20
[off-topic]
Jason,
I think you missed a couple of things here.
First, atheism is not absence of belief in God, it is a belief in Its absence. Quite a difference here.
It is a belief, and it is as baseless and arbitrary as any religious belief.
Second, we are talking about different scales here. You are talking about a world view of a person. I am talking about an ideology. Not just any ideology, but the only one accepted – and actively enforced – by the State. You are talking about what an Anglican person may think. I am talking about The Church of England. See the difference here?
When atheism stops being a personal matter and becomes The One True Belief – it must be propagated and enforced by the Church. It’s called The Party, the Pope is called Secretary General and every wall features icons of St. Karl, St. Friedrich and St. Vladimir (in some places also St. Mao) – for everybody to worship. There are weekly masses and special holidays and charity drives on saints’ birthdays. There are hymns and chants and promises of utopian future. Now, how is it not a religion??
[/off-topic]
[on-topic]
Completely agree with you. A religious belief is not only unnecessary but may be even harmful to the meditative experience.
[/on-topic]
Axis Mundi
Axis Mundi
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Posted : Aug 22, 2011 22:07
"I believe there is no God."
"I don't believe there is a God."
Two different statements - Atheism is defined as a lack of belief in a deity.
(I have to admit that the wording in the second paragraph of the off-topic part of your last post is sort of confusing.)
Maine Coon
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Posted : Aug 23, 2011 12:53
Yours is not the definition I grew up with. But that is not the reason I insist on my definition. The reason is that your definition equates atheism with agnosticism (which is indeed a lack of overt belief in God). Mine makes it easy to distinguish between the two.
As for the confusing paragraph, I am sure Pavel can explain it better. I spent half of my life in the USSR, just sharing some inside info.
Axis Mundi
Axis Mundi
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Posted : Aug 23, 2011 18:23
Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of certain claims - especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims - is unknown or unknowable. In the popular sense, an agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves there is a God, whereas an atheist disbelieves there is a God. In the strict sense, however, agnosticism is the view that human reason is incapable of providing sufficient rational grounds to justify knowledge whether God exists or does not. Within agnosticism there are agnostic atheists (who do not believe any deity exists, but do not deny it as a possibility) and agnostic theists (who believe a God exists but do not claim to know that).
Indeed, even the Greek entymology of the word is this:
"Ag-" "without" prefix
"Gnosis-" "knowledge"
T. Huxley defined the word as this: "Agnosticism is not a creed but a method, the essence of which lies in the vigorous application of a single principle... Positively the principle may be expressed as in matters of intellect, do not pretend conclusions are certain that are not demonstrated or demonstrable."
In short, agnosticism is a skeptical stance which says "Whether we choose to believe or not, there's no way to really know". This differs from the followers of most religions, who regard the existence of their (and/or other's) deity/ies as fact, and somehow provable.
Axis Mundi
Axis Mundi
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Posted : Aug 23, 2011 18:26
The Rig Veda, one of the oldest Hindu texts (indeed one of the oldest texts in general in existence) has a number of great agnostic-implying passages.
"Who really knows?
Who will here proclaim it?
Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation?
The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
Who then knows whence it has arisen?"
"Behold he who rules high from the highest heaven, he knows all! Or he may not know >.> "
(I took the liberty of adding the ">.>")
Vermeee
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Posted : Aug 23, 2011 18:56
Quote:
On 2011-08-16 18:12, Axis Mundi wrote:
Atheism isn't a religion
Maine Coon
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Posted : Aug 24, 2011 00:12
Quote:
On 2011-08-23 18:23, Axis Mundi wrote:
In short, agnosticism is a skeptical stance which says "Whether we choose to believe or not, there's no way to really know". This differs from the followers of most religions, who regard the existence of their (and/or other's) deity/ies as fact, and somehow provable.
Likewise, it differs from most atheists, who regard that godless nature of the Universe is a fact, and somehow provable.
And yes, I know about Occam's razor and that the burden of proof is on those who have an extra variable in their model.
Like I said, both theist and atheist beliefs are just that: beliefs. Both are baseless and arbitrary. It's impossible to prove non-existence of God. It’s nearly impossible to prove Its existence as well (the only way to do it is to witness a mass revelation, but it can be easily written off as an effect of a psytrance party, for example ). So, I still disagree with you: atheism is a belief that God does not exist. It is not experimentally derived knowledge, nor is it a theoretical prediction – it is no more than a belief. And it is usually not an isolated idea but a part of a bigger belief system. I noticed, for example, that it’s usually associated with leftist political views. Marx and Marxist societies (most prominently – my own Motherland) were an extreme example, of course – yet, a good illustration of this trend.
jabba
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Posted : Aug 31, 2011 14:57
Very interesting I met someone straight from Vipassana and he was telling me how he experienced the impermanent nature of self ............... well i first un intentionally LOLed and asked from child hood everyone has been saying and we have been seeing that "change is the only constant " hehehe so then he said no u dont understand you can actually feel something like if you believe in GOD ............. well i said ... my friend first of all when you get into the search of the one who has been with you ....you loose him , a big foolish way to search what is already found hahahaha ........... then he asked okay then what does meditation does >>>>>>>>> I said simple ... you relax your mind and with time you condition it to not react to futile things and thus less attraction towards distractions and that the mind learn how to concentrate and this my friend has nothing to do with spirituality or GOD .............meditation happenes by itself since the idea to sit in meditation itself is a paradox .... as the whole idea of meditation is conscious decision to reach unconscious yet aware state which is pure relaxation if we take it simply which again simplified means " a sleep induction with no actual sleep & relaxation without the auto system of body to help for " which reduces stress levels and rejuvenates the brain and nothing else lol To focus sometimes you need to spin hard on your soul's axis..... just don't ask how and what it means ;)
TimeTraveller
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Posted : Sep 1, 2011 02:40
I think this is a mistake, when you almost sleeping than it's not the same as meditation.Meditation is very active. After meditation you have a lot of energy. For sleeping it is better to lye in bed even more relax It's not just being calm ,to think nothing and reach a communication with supreme is something else. Saying that I must confess I haven't meditate for way too long but this is just my 2 cents.
https://soundcloud.com/shivagarden
@TT this could well be a mistake no denying but after 7 yrs of meditation and astral travel and experiencing strange phenomenons happening and all that excitement , my heart tells me that everything was and is perfect from the beginning since all that has to be known is being gathered only as a witness to personal experiences.But i feel it is just a rabbit hole no need to go in but if you do you are bound to be mesmerized in any which way but then i ask to myself was it worth and i get the answer well it was but not a necessity coz creation and creativity is in doing so you can witness well and learn.
once you increase your jargon it takes you to places but never found more happiness than being the same non seeker and just a doer so that has come to this you see ............ but then hey everyone has his own way of perception ........ as many souls as many universes and we come back on the same platform to exchange notes , is it peace n light very light
To focus sometimes you need to spin hard on your soul's axis..... just don't ask how and what it means ;)
mica
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Posted : Sep 2, 2011 16:50
today's agnostic views sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me, just like every other religious institute " I dont believe there is a god but I also dont deny it"(just in case so I dont burn in hell) , playing fence games, being on both sides and wait for the out come to make my decision. It dont work that way , either you are with God or not , no two ways about it
TimeTraveller
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Posted : Sep 3, 2011 15:23
Quote:
On 2011-09-02 11:12, jabba wrote:
@TT this could well be a mistake no denying but after 7 yrs of meditation and astral travel and experiencing strange phenomenons happening and all that excitement , my heart tells me that everything was and is perfect from the beginning since all that has to be known is being gathered only as a witness to personal experiences.But i feel it is just a rabbit hole no need to go in but if you do you are bound to be mesmerized in any which way but then i ask to myself was it worth and i get the answer well it was but not a necessity coz creation and creativity is in doing so you can witness well and learn.
once you increase your jargon it takes you to places but never found more happiness than being the same non seeker and just a doer so that has come to this you see ............ but then hey everyone has his own way of perception ........ as many souls as many universes and we come back on the same platform to exchange notes , is it peace n light very light
On 2011-09-02 16:50, mica wrote:
today's agnostic views sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me, just like every other religious institute " I dont believe there is a god but I also dont deny it"(just in case so I dont burn in hell) , playing fence games, being on both sides and wait for the out come to make my decision. It dont work that way , either you are with God or not , no two ways about it
