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analog shmanalog
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TopDown
Started Topics :
7
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62
Posted : Apr 15, 2006 08:03
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TopDown
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
62
Posted : Apr 15, 2006 10:52
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[quote]UnderTow :
It is ok that you don't understand it but don't make any conclusions then. Accept what the people that do understand tell you or accept that you just don't know. Nothing wrong with that.
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What do they tell me ? That we reached best possible quality with 24/96 ? That no farther improvments will get us nearer to natural sound ?
[quote]UnderTow :
... And we are certainly not talking about overtones...
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Yes I screwed this one up ...
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I spent arround 4500 Euro on my Andromeda analogue synth. Not because it is _better_ than my digital synths but because it complements the digital equipment. It is like a painter having more colours and more brushes to work with.
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So you do hear there something you don't in the digital domain, or is it its interface you'r after ?
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UnderTow :
This is a good point but think about this: As there is no absolute reference in electronic sounds like there is for the human voice or a piano, how do you get it more right? It is actually less important as we adjust to what we hear instead of comparing to what we remember.
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Pavel :
Top Down, i really tried, but i didn't understand a bit of what you wrote above me. Can you be more specific about what is your point exactly? What do you mean by saying that electronic music ignores musical context?
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That is the ticky part - the current quality is good enough for reproducing natural sound, you don't often catch a bad recording from past 30 years. Does it mean you stop synthesing session after getting your lead exactly like the one you heard before (unfortunatly that sometimes is the case) ? No, You keep changing it untill it sounds most "right", in psychological terms most "plesant".
Make yourself a preset on 16/44 and see how later in 24/44 you tweak it again "to fit", get more pleasant. Compare that preset recorded in 16 and in 24. Which one do you like more ? Which one is more plesant ?
I claim (nothing exclusive, others mentioned it before) techno music tend to focus on timbre and texture (the "how"), often leaving other musical aspects (mellody, harmony, tempo, rithm or the "what") pretty if not at all constant.
Now let me confess again - I don't entirely understand math inside digital audio. I work only digital, 24/96 and it fits my needs great. I listen to only 16/44 recordings and fucking enjoy it. From time to time I bump into live acts, played probably in 24/44-96 and can spot difference (24k ears, after all).
Science is a great achievment, a fruit of thousands of years and billions of people intence work. Its very beuty is in abbility to break every complexed factor to many simplier subfactors.
Does music work this same way ? It has even richer history than science and was brought to as great levels of complexity of research. If you read any worthy "musical harmony tutorial" u get the idea music actes as a broken math formula : it works fine, untill isn't pleasant enough and there we change to other formula that suits better etc... Take a simple scale and look at its notes relationship with each other in decimal way, for example. The thing is, math probably isn't true enough to describe the world as it is. Sound is one aspect of the world and math can't describe it true enaugh.
Making music for people is different from making it for computers or scientific research. You would want it to be pleasant. Somehow people claim analog is "warm", "nice", "smooth", "natural" etc. You can ingnore those placebo-dummies and concentrate on math behind your converter. In some time the world will change to hiegher bitdepths and get digital sound even closer to analog one, with some luck for you there will be no choice but upgrading.
What is my point, Pavel ?
There is no point. Not everything has one. Did you really hope we will end analog vs. digital once and for all, here in "analog smanalog" discussion ? That they will link here from Weekepedia from "Analog is dead/Digital sounds crap" page ?
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
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1448
Posted : Apr 15, 2006 12:37
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That page is full of errors and omissions.
UnderTow |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Apr 15, 2006 12:46
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On 2006-04-15 10:52, TopDown wrote:
What do they tell me ? That we reached best possible quality with 24/96 ? That no farther improvments will get us nearer to natural sound ?
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No. We/they say that you won't improve sound quality by increasing the sampling rate or bit depth.
Converters arn't perfect but the improvements should be found in the filters, decimators, clocks, SRCs, upsamplers and very often, in the analogue stages of the converters. Not the sample rates or bit depths.
You seem to equate 24/96 with a particular level of quality. If that were the case, studios would just buy the cheapest 24/96 converters they can find. In reality of course, each implementation of 24/96 is slightly different. The implementation is the important part and this is were things can be improved.
Despite all that, digital media (Redbook CD for instance) is better than any analogue medium for storage as long as you have the right converters.
UnderTow
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Pavel
Troll
Started Topics :
313
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8649
Posted : Apr 15, 2006 13:04
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Another thing that separates between the 2$ worth AD/DA that you have on your onboard sound card and between the 2000$ worth professional AD/DA is the accuracy of the syncronization clock. The less drifts exist in the circuitry inside the AD/DA the better accuracy.
Eh, Undertow already mentioned it.
 Everyone in the world is doing something without me |
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Yuli
Retired
Started Topics :
40
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1660
Posted : Apr 16, 2006 03:04
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I have red thru all of this thread and I must say that all those numbers made me pretty much confused hehe.. U know I used to play Chess once when I was @ my teens. I was pretty good at it and played professional level, actually my club manager thought I am worthy of free personal lessons of Israeli Champion at that time.. but one thing really drew the interest out from the game for me and sent me to play basketball...  Well at these times ( second half of the 80's ) the Chess theory prospered and some of the opening moves could go 35 - 40 moves forward by the book, damn it was numbers upon numbers upon numbers, it wasnt fun anymore...
So after this long and boring biographical intro, my opinion is the numbers are important but till certain point only and then what's important is the deepness of understanding that u gained during WORK PROCESSES. Most of the ppl that study 4 years in a sound engineering college, come out of there - do they know making sound? Most of the cases not, but their heads full of numbers.
Analog vs. Digital - Yo there is nothing as sweet as pure analog sound oh yeah that is true and I agree. In 95% of club surroundings full with ppl & noise I doubt I will find the expert that will distinguish between those two ( and I dont mean CD vs Turntable debate but purely analog recording vs purely digital recording coming out of a CD player, conszidering that both recordings were done on same budget equipment, knowing that hardware is always more expensive but not in millions of $$ )... OK now more than a few times a dude came over to me after a set and tried to convince me that I wrote my music with analogue hardware, while it took me some time to convince him back that I sold my studio more than 4 years ago...
It is true that no digital emulation is as good as its analogue original and hopefully never be as good, but it is damn close!! And altho there is difference, it is vivid only for those with super trained ears, and i bet my old hat, that if u take a sober raver and make that test i talked about in his living room without pressing him too hard to te wall, he wont notice a difference, press him a little harder he will get pissed off. Most of these differences are obvious to a very well trained ears - basically for those that know where to look for differences... On the other hand what digital/VST/etc provides for us users is much more new ways to make our emulation perfect and close to the original!
Basically it is all between the ears, in our deeper understanding of what we call sound and how it works.
A little unorganized maybe but there is a point in this mumbling, check it out, gotta sleep now
A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Apr 16, 2006 05:46
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5Meo-Geo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
515
Posted : Apr 16, 2006 08:34
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yuli i agree with ya about avarage sober raver but i want to correct and point to sertain point....
brain is our own A/D converter in our body....
its picks up everything
every small change will be translated to electricity in our nerve system
so data is in our brain even if we talking about non sound educated ravers....
problem is not everybody's countesness can notice those differences.... soundman trains to detect even tiny change in sound he listening to (its simular to any sence we have as humans...just need abit of training)
so subcountesly even avarage raver will enjoy analog sound more than digital....more organic sound easier to our brains...
he might not be aware why but he totaly will feel it
and tsab back to ur question with different question.....
why to bother making good sounding mix if eventualy ull play it on crapy turbosound sound systems???
if u can answer this one u probobly can answer alredy ur original question about the cd
Jesus didnt dance,but his beat goes on
http://www.myspace.com/5me0ge0
PSYCHEDELIC-ZION |
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Yuli
Retired
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
1660
Posted : Apr 16, 2006 09:08
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On 2006-04-16 08:34, 5Meo-Geo wrote:
yuli i agree with ya about avarage sober raver but i want to correct and point to sertain point....
brain is our own A/D converter in our body....
its picks up everything
every small change will be translated to electricity in our nerve system
so data is in our brain even if we talking about non sound educated ravers....
problem is not everybody's countesness can notice those differences.... soundman trains to detect even tiny change in sound he listening to (its simular to any sence we have as humans...just need abit of training)
so subcountesly even avarage raver will enjoy analog sound more than digital....more organic sound easier to our brains...
he might not be aware why but he totaly will feel it
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I thought that someone should come with this point which is pretty valid. Yep and it is valid, but
It does go into the field of unknown speculations.. Like if the 'not so accurate but so warm' analogue Pultec [ DAMN I WISH I HAD ONE too bad one mono channel of this worth 2 month average sallary in Israel ] will make better effect on this raver then a razor sharp quality VST effect on the same frequency. I know what I'd like but I guess tastes differ.
The fact is that we dont really know what does happen to our brain when it encounters analogue or digital sound. And as far as I have noticed, hordes of crazed trance lovers jump 2 meters up in the air as long as it is 145 bpm plastic euphoric and cold.. so here u go - as far from analogue as Israel from Alaska
Yo that brings me to the former point it is not really important what generates your sound, as long as u know what u r doing with it A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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5Meo-Geo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
515
Posted : Apr 16, 2006 09:15
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undertones
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
25
Posts :
165
Posted : Apr 16, 2006 10:49
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5meo geo...ur missing yuli's point...its not the moog or tb303 or nord or any vst but what you are able to make with them that make people jump. he means it at a creative, not technical level.
imho, to be a good engineer, you need to know ur system to get the best out of it. at the same time knowing the derivation of fourier analysis isnt going to make you a better musician...i have a b.sc degree in mathematics and have you even heard of me?
top down...
1. ur obsession with analog sound astounds me. i would love to see your complete analog studio with analog tape recording systems and tape delays and what have you making psytrance....
2. only bats, dolphins and some other fish can hear 120000htz i think ur talking about bias frequency, where a frequency around that region is sent to the tape while recording to achieve a better frequency response, amongst other things....
3. you need to do some reading..
4. i think you and undertow should open a school for electronic music together...u make a good team! |
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5Meo-Geo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
515
Posted : Apr 16, 2006 11:15
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undertones plz read the thread from begining
ive pointed few times that im not analog freak and use 99% digital/soft equipment
my "obsession" is about the sound quality.....
i hear what sounds good and whats sounds 'plastic' and i want my music to sound good
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its not the moog or tb303 or nord or any vst but what you are able to make with them that make people jump. he means it at a creative, not technical level.
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yes and no
i can make ppl jump even with 8bit atari and tracker
but there will always be some smartass that will come and complain about "sound quality" even that crowd jumping
btw have u made any music in ur life ?
Jesus didnt dance,but his beat goes on
http://www.myspace.com/5me0ge0
PSYCHEDELIC-ZION |
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
Posts :
5306
Posted : Apr 16, 2006 11:50
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On 2006-04-16 08:34, 5Meo-Geo wrote:
and tsab back to ur question with different question.....
why to bother making good sounding mix if eventualy ull play it on crapy turbosound sound systems???
if u can answer this one u probobly can answer alredy ur original question about the cd
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as i said before my studio is 100% digital exept my guitar. and i love (and c'mon.. also you do..) music made 80% of the times by vst (or even just fruityloops) 
i just started discussion on something i dont know much to learn from you all.. but as soon it got to many numbers and articles i read some and then loose intrest. still i have some idea about it , and prolly will get analog synth sometime to complete the variety.
regarding your Q.. i think turbosound so far is ok soundsystem . here in israel thats what there is where i get to play (in the good case) and im ok with that.. as artis i can do my best to sound good on various speakers, and party org should take care of better system. dont forget that turbosound is very loud system compare to its price and alot of peaple make parties just dont have much money.
beside that i honestly can hear diffrence in good/bad quality not only in studio monitors but even in my 300nis computer speaker,car,old speakers etc.
anywayz , u play in your set alot of vst music that aint even mixed/mastered properly .
so when its good music , the sound quality is secondary . but sure if its not good then less peaple can hear whats good in it.
www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/ |
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TopDown
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
62
Posted : Apr 16, 2006 13:37
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On 2006-04-16 10:49, undertones wrote:
...top down...
1. ur obsession with analog sound astounds me. i would love to see your complete analog studio with analog tape recording systems and tape delays and what have you making psytrance....
2. only bats, dolphins and some other fish can hear 120000htz i think ur talking about bias frequency, where a frequency around that region is sent to the tape while recording to achieve a better frequency response, amongst other things....
3. you need to do some reading..
4. i think you and undertow should open a school for electronic music together...u make a good team!
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1. I'd love to see it too ...
My analog equipment concludes only the power switch on the PC. For me this topic was pure theoretic, the luxury of analog sound is still very low in my priorities.
2. From all 3 tons of nonscence I wrote here you dig only this innocent misstype ?
3. I did some and after did some more. You should do some yourself! Very helpfull - widens your horizons and shows new perspectives. You also train yourself to spot the important from the less and not just jump to react on every single misstype.
4. in edjucation it is called "scaling" (derived from "scale"), older student acts as a younger ones teacher.
I think it was Einstein or some other smart folk, that saied : "I learned much more while being a lector than a student."
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Pavel
Troll
Started Topics :
313
Posts :
8649
Posted : Apr 16, 2006 13:45
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Yuli good points there, as usual.
BTW, this specific model of Pultec EQ that i put was thrown away from Channel 1's studio some years ago. Somebody found it in the garbage completely functioning.
They also have a Studer MTR with some small problem lying useless in their studio in Jerusalem Theatre. If you want to find good and free vintage equipment you should live near their studios in Jerusalem, they have the habbit to throw their equipment away. BTW, they can't sell it cause it's a governmental branch and they have some stupid regulations that doesn't allow selling. Even to transfer from branch to branch requires years of paperwork. Not to mention that Reshut Ha Shidur's annual budget is around 1 Billion Shekels.
Sorry for the 
Everyone in the world is doing something without me |
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