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analog shmanalog
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Pavel
Troll
Started Topics :
313
Posts :
8649
Posted : Apr 14, 2006 09:17
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On 2006-04-14 08:56, 5Meo-Geo wrote:
but whatever dude... my ego says me now to quit this discution....
u keep making vst music
ill keep building analog gear for my production
coze for me (and some 10 other folks that producing pc music that heard this filter) this little baby sound way better than ANY vst filter http://www.uni-bonn.de/%7Euzs159/rs20.png
but again its a PLACEBO
10x for open my eyes
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I am not Electronics Engineer but i worked in this field for about 5 years and i can't see here nothing that can't be perfectly emulated by software. And if you emulate it with software and still hear a difference, you should try Waves' Q-Clone that allows you to capture this device's freq. response.
  Everyone in the world is doing something without me |
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5Meo-Geo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
515
Posted : Apr 14, 2006 10:14
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pavel u can emulate plane flight also by software.... its not mean u can flight plane after playing this simulation
thats whats this topic is about....
u can build filter emulation in MatLab in 20 lines code
it just will sound like shit (even if ull code filter that will use 99% of ur dialcore 3.5 ghz cpu this simple circuit will give ya more organic/fat sound)
Jesus didnt dance,but his beat goes on
http://www.myspace.com/5me0ge0
PSYCHEDELIC-ZION |
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Pavel
Troll
Started Topics :
313
Posts :
8649
Posted : Apr 14, 2006 10:20
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On 2006-04-14 10:14, 5Meo-Geo wrote:
pavel u can emulate plane flight also by software
thats whats this topic is about....
u can build filter emulation in MatLab in 20 lines code
it just will sound like shit (even if ull code filter that will use 99% of ur dialcore 3.5 ghz cpu this simple circuit will give ya more organic/fat sound)
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A. Not a valid comparison.
B. There's nothing organic in this circuit and fat/thin is totally personal definition and cannot be put in numbers. In my experience, people using the "fat" words on signals that were treated by analog equipment that in fact weren't less than accurate than the digital one. The Matlab process will be more accurate and the analog circuit that you put will most likely distort the signal much more.
Anyways it's a lost discussion. Since every side is dead stuck in his presumptions. I think it's time to quit before it becomes nasty?
Everyone in the world is doing something without me |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Apr 14, 2006 10:25
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On 2006-04-14 08:56, 5Meo-Geo wrote:
UnderTow u know what....
F**k it man
u keep guessing stuff about me...whatever...
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Yes and I write that I am guessing. Feel free to correct me. As to my other comments, they are based on what you write right here in this thread. Your knowledge is obvioulsy limited. I can't help that.
You on the other hand make comments about people you have never ever met. Amazing ...
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if u ask me u too much belive in placebo and have not objective teachers that planted narow point of view in ur head
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In other words you believe that you are 100% objective in your listening. It must be great to live with such certainties. A pitty you are wrong ...
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so even if u DO hear/feel difference between digital and analog production u CONVINCE uself that its only a placebo effect...
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Who is guessing now? Not only are you guessing but you shouldn't even be guessing as I have allready said what I think. If you reread the whole thread you will see that I clearly say that there are differences.
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i dono why u keep and return to not-relevant-to-this-topic sampling issue
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I'll refresh your memory for you. Quote from the first post in this thread:
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so as long u didnt recorded real analog synth into real analog recording (tape) and press it on vynil.. its actualy pure digital quality.. u can make half way by using analog tools and press it on cd then it gets digital media anyway and u loose the real warmth of analog signal. |
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but whatever dude... my ego says me now to quit this discution....
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So why don't you stop? Can't control yourself? 
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u keep making vst music
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And another wrong guess. And again pretty stupid as I have allready written that I like a mix of digital and analogue. I have a bunch of analogue and digital hardware synths in my studio. I have a bunch of analogue and digital outboard processors in my studio.
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ill keep building analog gear for my production
coze for me (and some 10 other folks that producing pc music that heard this filter) this little baby sound way better than ANY vst filter
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Aha! Are you saying that _you_ only produce on the PC? Lol. 
Btw, I can guarantee you that more than 10 people have heard the MS-20 filters. Lol. I used to have an MS-20 in my studio.
Oh boy ... reading isn't your forte heh?
UnderTow |
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5Meo-Geo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
515
Posted : Apr 14, 2006 10:45
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yaman as i said i make 99% digital
i like digital noise i like digital harshness my music is far from being organic sounds
but yet i leave 1-2% for analog sound proccesing...
for ur general knowlage its not an original ms20 filter but a modified clone for modular systems but thats minor (and ref to 10 ppl that heard this clone)...
true its still unused in my production cose the modular is just in building stages
oh yes i call the directors "stupid" cose i had a chance working with couple...
why dont i stop???
i did
im only reply on ur personal diss'ing comments
not about a/d (since i GUESS AGAIN u probobly coded few FPGA/DSP synths so u know what algo's running in them and what they actualy do and me is stupis analog ego-snob)
peace man
Jesus didnt dance,but his beat goes on
http://www.myspace.com/5me0ge0
PSYCHEDELIC-ZION |
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
Posts :
5306
Posted : Apr 14, 2006 10:52
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Pavel
Troll
Started Topics :
313
Posts :
8649
Posted : Apr 14, 2006 10:55
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Nice article, thanx!
Everyone in the world is doing something without me |
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hummingbird
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
115
Posted : Apr 14, 2006 13:07
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Hah!
In my day we used to make our trance by banging two rocks together and you don't want to know about the flame wars that started when Dudu came up with this strange wooden bowl with a goatskin on top.
--
PLUR and say "a deep and chunky trance with scattered showers and medium visibility" |
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14-year old e-tard
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
797
Posted : Apr 14, 2006 15:44
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On 2006-04-14 10:52, tsabeat wrote:
my original point was if finaly u burn cd it doesnt matter what u recorded
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It won't matter if someone is deaf, because the characteristics of analog synths are going to be obvious even when the medium is a digital one. I don't think you entirely understand what you are talking about.
Me>You |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Apr 14, 2006 19:06
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On 2006-04-14 10:14, 5Meo-Geo wrote:
pavel u can emulate plane flight also by software.... its not mean u can flight plane after playing this simulation
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Funny you mention that. A friend is a flight instructor at KLM. They teach pilots how to fly big commercial airliner jets in flight simulators. This is the ONLY way to teach them. You don't really think they put pilots into 747's to teach them how to fly them do you?
Anyway, we disgress.
UnderTow |
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TopDown
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
62
Posted : Apr 14, 2006 19:53
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[/quote]
Funny you mention that. A friend is a flight instructor at KLM. They teach pilots how to fly big commercial airliner jets in flight simulators. This is the ONLY way to teach them. You don't really think they put pilots into 747's to teach them how to fly them do you?
Anyway, we disgress.
UnderTow
[/quote]
Yep, no better way ...
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TopDown
Started Topics :
7
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62
Posted : Apr 14, 2006 20:16
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Convertors shmaconvertors ...
There is a whole dithered perception around. Thats a very comfortable position, everything can be computed, resampled, stored and finally transfered. Very certain and clear. The devine formula !
It all turnes to a simple binary code : digital and analog; right and wrong; zero and 1.
OKey dokey, lets get digital ...
Human brain differs by many things from the cyber one, one of them is its "weakness" or predisposition to sine waves around. One certain and very studied field of this "Sinophillya" is humans hearing. We can compromise and convert heard signal to those sine waves as we do when filter out speech or noize everyday. Bottom line, human brain can tell.
Sorry but all this convertors links are pure chineese to me. All I understand from talkes about "better/good convertor" is there is not a perfect one. Thus distortion is present and I guess its of that digital type - unwanted overtones.
Human ear built to catch separate frequencies, pure sine waves if you want. Don't underestimate your analog hearing equipment it even has a built in EQ module (it is the source of those mentioned placebos). The information gets analized later to become destinct sounds in natural noizy environment. Fundomental and its overtones, all waves, sine waves. It is full in vibrating liquid - the ear, it will respond better/faster and get the listener greater plesure to everything closer to sine.
In audio closer to sine is higher resolution and less digital processing.
One can never fuck unsafe before, untill that remarkable first time without a condom when he WILL notice the difference
I believe this 5 page discussion about almost unheard nuance is for a reason.
Digital audio is cheap and handy, producer saves tons of time (my guess about 3/8 hours less) working VST. When and if manufactoros will sell around a pure analog studio for $2000 in a small box with games and internet you will all take it if only because its analog.
PS
How the hell will get there noize from your equipment into a digital soundwave in let say 128bit/192Khz resolution ?
Shouldn't it only zoom inside the wave and make it more constant/accurate ?
PSS
Analog source recorded on digital media will get processed only once ==> more accurate than digital source recorded on analog media > recorded on digital media
PSSSR
Writing this made me rethink and get to conclusion that analog (or pretty analog) sound is not less vital in techno music then in organic. Electronica got more focused on timbres and textures, sometimes allmost ignoring other aspects of musical context (harmony, mellody, tempo and rithm). The listener has less sources to compare synthetic sound with. His mind can't shape the sound to the right pattern, as in recorded piano sound for example.
Producers should wellcome any changes getting his sound right and not just take a side in an argument just for the sake of it.
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Pavel
Troll
Started Topics :
313
Posts :
8649
Posted : Apr 14, 2006 21:03
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Top Down, i really tried, but i didn't understand a bit of what you wrote above me. Can you be more specific about what is your point exactly? What do you mean by saying that electronic music ignores musical context? I don't catch your drift here. What is 128bit exactly? I'm confused.
Everyone in the world is doing something without me |
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
Posts :
5306
Posted : Apr 14, 2006 23:31
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On 2006-04-14 15:44, 14-year old e-tard wrote:
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On 2006-04-14 10:52, tsabeat wrote:
my original point was if finaly u burn cd it doesnt matter what u recorded
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It won't matter if someone is deaf, because the characteristics of analog synths are going to be obvious even when the medium is a digital one. I don't think you entirely understand what you are talking about.
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no i dont
thats why i open this post so u can all fight for whats right and i can learn something from this, but still by my very small understanding characteristics of analog is realy emulated nicely on nordlead , virus , waldorf and such.. offcourse less in vst for the reason those synths are loaded with dsp chips and can handle more accurate calculations.
and yet.. somthing with the simulations is catch me.. u can learn to fly with simulations but u wont get anywhere
and 1 fact i know is that amazing sound master tim healy still djing records and his sound is better then all of us , so dont tell me vynil sound bad and yet.. his mp3 also sound good  www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/ |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Apr 15, 2006 00:19
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On 2006-04-14 20:16, TopDown wrote:
Sorry but all this convertors links are pure chineese to me. All I understand from talkes about "better/good convertor" is there is not a perfect one. Thus distortion is present and I guess its of that digital type - unwanted overtones.
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Nor is there any perfect analogue equipment. It just doesn't exist. And we are certainly not talking about overtones. That is more likely with analogue gear (harmonics). And they are not always unwanted. The reason why people like stuff like tube gear is because it distorts the sound with added harmonics (amongst other things). Humans like distortion as long as it is the right type and the right amount.
If you don't understand those links then you can not understand digital recording. The problem is that it is counter intuitive. Any "join the dots" explanations are wrong and miss the point.
It is ok that you don't understand it but don't make any conclusions then. Accept what the people that do understand tell you or accept that you just don't know. Nothing wrong with that.
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In audio closer to sine is higher resolution and less digital processing.
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This is a meaningless statement.
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I believe this 5 page discussion about almost unheard nuance is for a reason.
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Absolutely. It is because it is a complex subject that most people don't understand or don't have enough knowledge about so they jump to erronous conclusions.
Sampling is a theorem, not a theory. That means that it is correct and mathematicaly proven. The maths are not up for discussion.
There are still engineering issues but they need to be solved/improved within the realm and limits of the theorems and maths that support it all. 192 Khz and 128 bit sampling is rubbish and does not fix the engineering issues.
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Digital audio is cheap and handy,
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Some digital audio is cheap. Not all digital audio is cheap. For instance, a pair of Lavry Gold stereo ADCs + DACs will cost you arround 16.000 dollars. That is by no means cheap.
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When and if manufactoros will sell around a pure analog studio for $2000 in a small box with games and internet you will all take it if only because its analog.
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This makes no sense ... Money isn't the issue. I much prefer to work in the digital domain for most stuff reguardless of cost just as I prefer analogue for certain things.
I spent arround 4500 Euro on my Andromeda analogue synth. Not because it is _better_ than my digital synths but because it complements the digital equipment. It is like a painter having more colours and more brushes to work with.
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How the hell will get there noize from your equipment into a digital soundwave in let say 128bit/192Khz resolution ?
Shouldn't it only zoom inside the wave and make it more constant/accurate ?
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One will never use 128 bit PCM converters for the reasons mentioned in this thread. And if you read and understood the links that I posted, you would also understand that 192Khz (and above) is also pointless.
There is no "zooming inside the wave and make it more constant/accurate". It just doesn't work that way. Either try and understand those links or simply accept that it is so.
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Writing this made me rethink and get to conclusion that analog (or pretty analog) sound is not less vital in techno music then in organic. Electronica got more focused on timbres and textures, sometimes allmost ignoring other aspects of musical context (harmony, mellody, tempo and rithm). The listener has less sources to compare synthetic sound with. His mind can't shape the sound to the right pattern, as in recorded piano sound for example.
Producers should wellcome any changes getting his sound right and not just take a side in an argument just for the sake of it.
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This is a good point but think about this: As there is no absolute reference in electronic sounds like there is for the human voice or a piano, how do you get it more right? It is actually less important as we adjust to what we hear instead of comparing to what we remember.
When we talk about converters we have to look at real life signals going in and coming back out of a system. The more accurately this is done, the better.
If you want to store the signal before reproducing it, the best option is to do it digitaly. That will be more accurate than any current analogue format (tape vinyl etc).
UnderTow |
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