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analog shmanalog
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
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1448
Posted : Apr 5, 2006 22:43
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On 2006-04-05 19:07, tribalizer wrote:
... the more BITS of amplitude and the higher the SAMPLE RATE of the converters on your soundcard, the better your capture of the analogue caracter of your analogue source.
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This isn't exactly true. There is no point in going beyond 24 bit recording because beyond that you are just recording more noise. This noise is inherent to the _analogue_ components of the system. Not the digital components.
As for sampling rates, anything above 96Khz is a total waste unless you need to record inaudible frequencies for scientific purpouses or something. For music, this is absolutely pointless. I would even say that good converters at 44.1Khz is all that is needed.
Increasing sampling rates beyond what is needed (lets say 96Khz for argument's sake) is more likely to degrade the quality and will certainly make your system (DAW) work much harder to process sound that you can't even hear!
We are not making music for bats! 
Note that I am talking about the converters. Some processes do gain by being done at higher sampling rates but this can be done within the process (plugin) itself. Non-linear processes usualy gain from this. Stuff like limiting and compression for instance. But you don't need your whole system to run at a higher sampling rate just for those few processes.
UnderTow |
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5Meo-Geo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
515
Posted : Apr 5, 2006 22:55
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tripz nord as all "virtual analog" is fully digital....
u can call VSTi's also virtual analog btw
virtual analog means digital program that simulates analog sircuits......
and tzab u messing 2 different things......
1 thing is producing music with digital stuff
and different thing is convert analog data to cd format....
sure thing that cd wont sound like vinyl but nothing we can do about it... almost no psytrance label do vinyls today....
that leave us with cd's..
now we face different problem... what data will be set there
im sure u can hear difference between lets say chemical brothers moog/tb303 basslines to any today digi synts/vsti psytrance basslines
i can stop here but ill take u deeper into it
problem with digital stuff that formulas never simulate in 100% (not even 80%) real life situations
if u know alitle of calculus and know whats Furie-transform is then u should already understand the problem in simulating analog sound
thats why ALL digital synths like virus or Q or any other will sound "plastic"
no analog synth will make u same sound even with same setup
and thats goes worse when u talking about sound proccessors like dynamics or eqs or effects....
uve been djing a while by now so u probobly used eq on CRAPY dj mixers
and even that those mixers eq is realy simplified u probobly notice that u NEVER can get same sound from NONE digital eq' not in logic and not in cubase and not in protools
same goes to compressor...
till u wont use once analog compressor ull never understand the difference....
botom line... for me its funny... in age that music valued BY QUALITY OF SOUND and not by quality of music "artists" insist to be blind to how fucked up the equipment they use
 Jesus didnt dance,but his beat goes on
http://www.myspace.com/5me0ge0
PSYCHEDELIC-ZION |
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5Meo-Geo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
515
Posted : Apr 5, 2006 23:01
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On 2006-04-05 22:26, UnderTow wrote:
Wether analogue components sound better or worse than digital stuff is a matter of taste. I like a mix of both.
UnderTow
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actualy Underflow by mixing them u get same effect as if u would do it pure analog...
again to calculus (maybe bit geometry also)...
when u adding 2 waves u get new wave...
so as more low frq ur analog signal, more analog whole mix will sound
Jesus didnt dance,but his beat goes on
http://www.myspace.com/5me0ge0
PSYCHEDELIC-ZION |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Apr 5, 2006 23:17
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On 2006-04-05 22:55, 5Meo-Geo wrote:
virtual analog means digital program that simulates analog sircuits......
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Most don't. See my other post.
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sure thing that cd wont sound like vinyl but nothing we can do about it... almost no psytrance label do vinyls today....
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Thank goodness. Vinyl sounds like crap.
If you want that vinyl sound, you can emulate it in digital formats but you can NOT get the reprodcution quality of digital with vinyl.
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u NEVER can get same sound from NONE digital eq' not in logic and not in cubase and not in protools
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This isn't true anymore. The Weiss EQ1 digital EQ sounds VERY good. The PSP Linear Phase EQ sounds quite good. The refined Audiometric Research PLparEQ sounds very good too. So do the Algorithmic orange and red EQs. A pitty they cost 1000$ each ...
The PLparEQ is the most affordable of the bunch. 150$ for the 3 band version. Luckily I got it for free from the developer.
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same goes to compressor...
till u wont use once analog compressor ull never understand the difference....
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Dynamics processing is harder to do as they are non-linear processes but there are some pretty good compressors coming out recently. Stil I would agree that analogue is usualy better for compression.
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botom line... for me its funny... in age that music valued BY QUALITY OF SOUND and not by quality of music "artists" insist to be blind to how fucked up the equipment they use
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I wouldn't call it fucked up. It has limitations but one can learn to work with limitations. If that wasn't the case, no one could be making music except those rich enough to record/produce in the biggest studios on the planet. Luckily that isn't the case.
UnderTow |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Apr 5, 2006 23:21
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On 2006-04-05 23:01, 5Meo-Geo wrote:
actualy Underflow by mixing them u get same effect as if u would do it pure analog...
again to calculus (maybe bit geometry also)...
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No that isn't true. _You_ need to go and check on your calculus.
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when u adding 2 waves u get new wave...
so as more low frq ur analog signal, more analog whole mix will sound
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Well sure but the analogue sources don't suddenly become digital sources so you get the sound elements of both. Like I said, I like a mix of both.
UnderTow
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Apr 5, 2006 23:24
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Quote:
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On 2006-04-05 23:21, UnderTow wrote:
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On 2006-04-05 23:01, 5Meo-Geo wrote:
actualy Underflow by mixing them u get same effect as if u would do it pure analog...
again to calculus (maybe bit geometry also)...
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No that isn't true. _You_ need to go and check on your calculus.
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Err for some strange reason I read your post as "you get the same as ... pure digital"
Whatever, it isn't true.
UnderTow |
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
Posts :
5306
Posted : Apr 6, 2006 08:04
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botom line... for me its funny... in age that music valued BY QUALITY OF SOUND and not by quality of music "artists" insist to be blind to how fucked up the equipment they use
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well.. defintly music valued by music quality.. but good sound help the peaple to understand the point. nothing more..
and as artist who think for a minute i want all my listeners to enjoy as much as possible from my music , so better sound quality is simply a must, why anyone bother listen to crapy sounds - even if its great groovy music behind the noizz - as long it sounds like recorded in basement its realy hard to figure what one wants , take me couple of years to get it , once i thought great composition can cover the bad mix.. but better late then never.
just for the record.. in salakavala set (comfort) the sound was so bad that it hurt my ears (after 3 dj's that sound great).
i came to see them specialy but i found myself covering my ears because of terrible mix. in that point , it realy didnt matter how great the music was.
www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/ |
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Trip-
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
101
Posts :
3239
Posted : Apr 6, 2006 10:04
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UnderTow,
I was talking about the Q - and I wasn't mentioning filtering and other modules except the Oscillators. To me, once the osc is digital, the whole thing won't sound too analog - although analog filters are great - on anything practicly.
Crackling universes dive into their own neverending crackle...
AgalactiA |
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5Meo-Geo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
515
Posted : Apr 6, 2006 12:05
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underflow thats what im talking about when i say "blind"
about fancy and expencive digi eq's....
sure they sound good but put the output into osciloscope and c the difference...
digi eq will never do analog eq result
the math behind is too complicated
as been said...its only simulates... and as all of us know simulation is never like a real thing
when i say "sound more analog" i mean for nature of the sound...
it can be realy noisy digital sound but with addon of analog bassline this noise will sound more "organic" than in pure digital mix...(and about the waved and calculus...try to plot sine+square on some freeware graphs ploters..there is plenty on net)
i like digital sound very much...
but yet the funny thing i was talking earlier is about ppl trying to produce clear crystal analog sound from digital equipment... for me digital is there to do sound that non analog will ever do and thats the beauty of digital's
trips digi osc still can be good inside analog setup
for example run it thru analog rm and fm with adition of filter will sound pure analog to any ear
Jesus didnt dance,but his beat goes on
http://www.myspace.com/5me0ge0
PSYCHEDELIC-ZION |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Apr 6, 2006 14:36
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On 2006-04-06 10:04, Trip- wrote:
UnderTow,
I was talking about the Q - and I wasn't mentioning filtering and other modules except the Oscillators. To me, once the osc is digital, the whole thing won't sound too analog - although analog filters are great - on anything practicly.
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I think the Pulse proves this wrong. When the synth first came out and Waldorf were not clear about the oscilators, there were many debates ranging on the music forums and mailinglists. Loads and loads of people said it was analogue while a few people knew that the oscilators were DCO. Somehow people didn't want to believe them ...
UnderTow |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Apr 6, 2006 15:03
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On 2006-04-06 12:05, 5Meo-Geo wrote:
underflow thats what im talking about when i say "blind"
about fancy and expencive digi eq's....
sure they sound good but put the output into osciloscope and c the difference...
digi eq will never do analog eq result
the math behind is too complicated
as been said...its only simulates... and as all of us know simulation is never like a real thing
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Actually ... Go and listen to the EQ in a SSL 9000XL and compare it to the emulation in the SSL C200. The first is analogue, the second is digital. Frankly I can't hear the difference. It might look slightly different on a scope but if humans can't hear the difference on high quality monitors, it doesn't matter.
I didn't mention this earlier because frankly, I doubt many people arround here have worked on these consoles. The other stuff I mentioned (with the possible exception of the Weiss) is still kind of accessible financialy.
The good news is that those SSL EQs will soon be available to DAW users. Only 2000 Euro. 
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when i say "sound more analog" i mean for nature of the sound...
it can be realy noisy digital sound but with addon of analog bassline this noise will sound more "organic" than in pure digital mix...(and about the waved and calculus...try to plot sine+square on some freeware graphs ploters..there is plenty on net)
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I still don't see what your point is about ploting graphs. The human ears and brain is capable of distinguishing several sounds that are mixed. We (with a bit of training) can focus onto the seperate sounds. If this wasn't the case, we would be constantly living in a barrage of sound that didn't make any sense.
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i like digital sound very much...
but yet the funny thing i was talking earlier is about ppl trying to produce clear crystal analog sound from digital equipment... for me digital is there to do sound that non analog will ever do and thats the beauty of digital's
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Well true. But it is also there to do analogue sounds cheaply. And it is getting better and better every day.
When analogue transistor stuff first came out, people (including people like Rupert Neve) were saying that it sounded harsh and horrible. It didn't sound good and never would sound good. As knowledge and technology evolved, it was proven that transistors could sound good and people (like Neve) started using transistors in their equipment.
When digital equipment first came out people (Like Neve) said it sounded harsh and horrible and it would never sound as good as analogue. Later, as knowledge and technology evolved, people (like Neve) found out that it could sound good and started adopting it. Do we see a pattern here?
We have passed the point now that digital is as good as analogue. That doesn't mean that every cheap digital plugin or converter sounds good though but as time goes on, the prices go down and it will be available to everyone. There is allready some very good affordable stuff arround.
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trips digi osc still can be good inside analog setup
for example run it thru analog rm and fm with adition of filter will sound pure analog to any ear
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Well sure if you do analogue ring mod or FM between a digital osc and an anlogue osc the output will be analogue. But I never said that I was talking about that. I said I liked a mix of digital and analogue meaning mixing digital and analogue gear and synths!
UnderTow
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Pavel
Troll
Started Topics :
313
Posts :
8649
Posted : Apr 8, 2006 03:40
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Interesting discussion there.
The latest fad of emulating old analog equipment presents some really nice tools like Waves' Q-Clone that allows you to capture a behaviour of different EQ, and there are also various Convolution Reverb programs that allow you to immitate different spaces or Reverb Processors.
Everyone in the world is doing something without me |
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undertones
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
25
Posts :
165
Posted : Apr 10, 2006 05:37
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very interesting...
i think "analog emulation" is a myth...a gimmick created to pull in the old school of thought people...
just like they made the nord bright red to look like a dirty little whore!!! : ) |
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5Meo-Geo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
515
Posted : Apr 10, 2006 11:32
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undertones...
analog emulation is indeed emulation
mostly emulation of the signal path thru different algorithms that emulate analog modules
like lfo controling vcf by sending control voltage(analog)....= lfo algorith sends 010111001 to filter algorith and this signal controls ,lets say, cutof (digital)
Jesus didnt dance,but his beat goes on
http://www.myspace.com/5me0ge0
PSYCHEDELIC-ZION |
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14-year old e-tard
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
797
Posted : Apr 10, 2006 11:44
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On 2006-04-05 08:29, tsabeat wrote:
please make your opinion and correct me if im wrong.
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You're wrong. Analog synths sound different than digital ones. That difference is captured on your HDD and is obvious.
Me>You |
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