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Analog Bass experiments
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the daleks
The Daleks
Started Topics :
34
Posts :
584
Posted : May 9, 2008 07:41:34
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Hey all
the last few weeks I have been conducting experiments with Analog Bass to determine whether it is a feasible methodology for basslines
the setup I use is MIDI out > Super Bassstation as MIDI/CV conveter > Roland SH-2
I usually use Logic's ESM for bass up until now, but was intrigued to find whether analog bass would be a better/more interesting solution going forward
there was a large latency with the CV and SH-2, not sure where in the chain it occured, but my guess is with the CV. anyway, I was able to get the bass in line with the kick by offsetting the MIDI by -1/48
I found the analog sound very different, but with a nice character, and the usual minor variances in pitch and timing, but these are things I like
however, each time that I would come back to a session resetting the CV/Gate there were some problems, settings would get lost, so would have to reset the MIDI channels, not a big deal, but then yesterday when recording the bassline back into audio, I found that the envelopes were totally messed up, and that my 16th notes were becoming 8th notes, timing was totally messed up - even with the offset, and when comparing it to the ESM set up as a parallel line, I found the ESM to have more of the rolling quality that we have come to know and love, not to mention the perfect timing, and overall ease of dealing with a AU/VSTi
so I would like to ask, or kind of take a poll, what are your opinions on this?
I checked some old posts, and analog was definitely king, but now we are in 2008, DAWs are much better etc etc
for anyone that has worked with analog and digital both, what are your preferences? is it worth it with the analog? is my SH-2 on the fritz and should get it looked at? or is it better to stick with the tried and true methods? I'm not into sampling the bass waveform, as stylistically, I like the little variances in the music, and prefer to use MIDI as much as possible. So people that have used both, what do you find yourself using mostly these days, and why?
  Gamma Riders EP out now on iTunes and Amazon.com!
The Daleks : www.myspace.com/thedaleksupreme
A-Boys : www.myspace.com/akibaboys |
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illusions
Erebus
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
626
Posted : May 9, 2008 11:32
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I do really like the nice warm sound of an analog bassline sometimes. Since I don't have any nice analog pieces of equipment lying around at home, I use samples from the net/given by friends etc.. and load them into Cronox3.
Works fine for me  |
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klippel
Stereofeld
Started Topics :
91
Posts :
1153
Posted : May 9, 2008 14:24
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give trilogy a try..
hi quality samples of so many analogue monsters.. absolutely rocksolid.. me likey very much! |
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gutter
Inactive User
Started Topics :
54
Posts :
3018
Posted : May 9, 2008 14:53
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i dont use analog too , only thing i can say for something digital that kick asses is a TC Powercore DSP , delivered with the SH-101 emulation plugin .. you wont believe your ears if u listen to it (unbelievable fatness & envelope stability ) ,, to my ears it really makes analog sound , even if it is all digitally processed ,,
not to mention that u can have the Virus poco , and ... no comments ..
so you can have everything - midi played - and FAT&WARM .... 
i know u have to pay some money  for this but , its a really good investment if you love digital working and need the flexibility of midi patterns ... & of course smthng much more than plain soft synths on the market , which i use them too of course ...
same goes for sonic-scope, have no experience , but they have some extraordinary synthesizers bundle for their DSPs ,, like modular II & III ,, emulations of Moog , Prophet 5 etc,
witch can deliver super duper basslines with the "analog" feeling in them ..
anyway , its all about taste
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heretical
Started Topics :
1
Posts :
77
Posted : May 9, 2008 18:20
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analog has alot of great qualities....realiability and ultra fast envelopes are not part of that though.
For basses there is nothing lost by sampling your analog and alot gained as far as realiability and fast envelopes. Trilogy is great but it would be alot easier to just make a few samples of the gear your already have. |
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the daleks
The Daleks
Started Topics :
34
Posts :
584
Posted : May 9, 2008 19:13
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thanks for all of your responses!
some things I didnt mention maybe - i have a virus TI, and Trilogy, and soft synths up the yin-yang but I still find myself using the ESM for simplicity and punch. nice and warm with the right pumping, and VW, and its good for me
what I am talking about though is real analog. i guess its looking like my experiment proved right, stick with the tried and true method in the digital realm...
anyone from the analog camp have anything to say? is there ANYONE these days that uses MIDI/CV with analogs to success, or is it just a bygone technology/method?
Gamma Riders EP out now on iTunes and Amazon.com!
The Daleks : www.myspace.com/thedaleksupreme
A-Boys : www.myspace.com/akibaboys |
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Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : May 10, 2008 07:59
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : May 10, 2008 10:33
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In my experience old classic synths tend to be not so great for basses since the oscillators and envelopes get less stable with the years.
If you like analogue basses a modern synth will usually give a lot more solid result.
But even then I find that it can be hard to beat digital for basses due to the more precise envelopes and oscillators. I used a lot of analogue synths for basses through the years (SE-1, ATC-1, Moog modulars, Roland system 100m, Pro-One, Waldorf Pulse etc.) and I always found it tricky to get the precision and punch I want.
With VST's I find it hard as well since I usually cannot find a synth that gives enough fatness and density in the sound.
I agree with gutter that DSP systems is great...I haven't tried the Powercore synths but I love my Scope, especially for it's tight but fat and warm basses.
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the daleks
The Daleks
Started Topics :
34
Posts :
584
Posted : May 10, 2008 14:03
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>Upavas
yeah Doepfer has a nice deep sound. I have small modular A-110 system (on loan from a friend) so I can vouch for that. some drift in the oscillators though so I need to get it retuned. right now I just use it for sound f/x
>Spindrift
thanks! it is good to hear of your experiences
I think what I am going to do is 1) have a friend who does synth repair look at the SH-2, and see if it can be tightened up (probably needs it) 2) experiment a little with the TI and see if it yields a better sound - however I like to keep my bass in mono, so the limited routing options in it may not be suitable for a bass application 3) probably continue to use the ESM chain I have developed
I still romanticize about a fat burping analog bass line though..
Gamma Riders EP out now on iTunes and Amazon.com!
The Daleks : www.myspace.com/thedaleksupreme
A-Boys : www.myspace.com/akibaboys |
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AvS
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
464
Posted : May 11, 2008 15:53
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I use my SH-101 with a Doepfer Midi/Cv converter for bass sometimes. I love it! Super timeing.
Just a few days ago a was working on a track that had a bass sound from logic ES-1. It didnt really work out. I moved the bass midi track to the SH101 track. Much better however this doesnt really prove anyhing. It could have been another analog synth that i tried and that might have worked out worse than the ES-1.
But i really dig the quality of analog sounds but sometimes digital is the way to go and sometimes analog is. |
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
779
Posted : May 11, 2008 17:46
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Anolog waveforms, through digital envelopes (therfore the main filter is dgital too) every time.
The oscs in Cronox are okay, but perfect saws do not make perfect basses.
Much better to get something (almost anything) vintage and just sample the waveform. Thats the way I'm getting very substantial bass for now.
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http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
Posts :
5306
Posted : May 11, 2008 17:59
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Sample each note of the bassline 5-6 times , choose your favorite (or 2) from each note and use WAVS or SAMPLER
the best way to get the analog source (converted to digital anyhow , since you records to computer and people will listen in mp3)
so all in all you will have digital outcome even if your source is guitar 
as long its not vynil ya know...
But does a record sound better then cd ? will have to say no!
but again... is quality is evrything? or the electric analog pulse records also some of the vibe in the studio?
un messure able but i think this is little something that very much can happen since our feelings also generate electric pulse but in diffrent level then sound
and since obviously cd sound better less crackles and more accurate once you print 1000 copies etc. but still some people insist that analog make them feel better.
it can very much be placebo psychologic effect like if you records cd of pink floyd to vynil will the averege analog lover will say its better or worse hehe
i do believe its more psychologic effect mixes with nostalgia , since i have very special feeling listen to cd from 10 years ago , but not since cds were better only since it was huge part of my life so long www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/ |
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
779
Posted : May 12, 2008 11:19
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Oh yes, other thing I'd say is that by sampling just the waveform (ie totally open filter), lower then the lowest note of the bassline you are using just the one time will get you the most flexible sound.
Elads method above (where I think he is getting the filter sound from the vintage synth) is also good, but too much of a PITA for me, as you have to resample every note, and even then there is no absolutely sure way of getting a contiguous sound, it hard to edit the sound, or often establish whether the settings are right as often vintage doesn't retrigger osc phase on midi receive. Having said that, the method does work, and produces some very good results if you have the patience - which I don't
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http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
Posts :
5306
Posted : May 12, 2008 12:48
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btw i ment to sample C3 A4 and C4 for example not realy to record evry note of the bass
this is how you sure its gonna retrigger and not psahe.
but i think big analog idea is the phase and the slight detune as well for some cases. if u want dagagag bassline offcourse its not best but there are many cases it is.
www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/ |
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
779
Posted : May 12, 2008 13:24
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Yes, defo, that anlogue thing is all about the phase and IMO subtle saturation stylee disto that appears to boost the low mids/upper bass of a saw in a quasi square-wave kinda way.
But knowing me, phase mashing is one of my favourite activites to do in the box! Tying an LFO to phase is a very nice and intuitive way of doing this, of course if the synth will let you - its an unforgivably rare mod destination! Tying in a perfect saw wave to the mod source will in effect 'run' the osc in a continuous manner, just like a vintage synth - Obviously, you gotta be pretty careful about the speed to get a perfect emulation, but then, its often more interesting to do something slightly odd...
Basically, its horses for courses, vintage sounding is very cool, and there are a whole raft of ways to acheive it, so whatever works best for person making it I reckon - your way still has too much sampling for me (and I'm probably loosing my sampling speed benefit in setting up the synth) but the results I'm sure are all good
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http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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