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Am I Screwing Myself?

willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  93
Posts :  2822
Posted : Nov 18, 2009 13:03:56
Alright, so I very happily received this today in the mail:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/TorqMixLab.html

And I am using the included Torq DJ software

I know that its novice gear and novice software (relative to the professional grade CDJs+Traktor), however it seems easy to understand and the features *seem* nice to me but I am very unexperienced.

I have been mixing (well, train-wrecking and attempting to mix anyways) songs for the past couple hours and its really fun! I'm currently in the process of listening to some of my favorite albums and trying to get a full mix going eventually, but I have a couple questions if someone wouldn't mind guiding me a bit...

I read through the various threads about beatmatching, mixing and eqing, 7 technique, mixing in keys and most of it just goes wayyyy over my head (I have no prior musical training or theory...but I know what I like and don't like...I just can't explain why lol)

I am on a very fixed income as I'm about to move across the country...the only reason I bought this was because it was $50 on woot.com and I figured a basic setup would be good to learn the basics on.. So, I have no deck-like-surface with which to learn, and no prospect of one for a couple of months.

I also am taking an online production course (thanks Tom Cosm!) with Ableton Live, and one day intend to be a producer

that being said, I would prefer to focus my learning as much as possible...like I don't want to spend hours reading musical theory when I need to spend time getting used to software and learning concepts that actually matter to DJing/Mixing/Producing (not that I would in any way imply that musical theory isn't useful...)

So, that leads me up to my first question:

Beatmatching...it seems quite easymode to just sync Deck A to Deck B or vice versa in the software and it seems to sound pretty decent...but a lot of the comments on this forum tend to lean towards "only noobs do that, its easy to learn" etc.

I don't mind putting in the time to learn something if its going to be of great use to me, but even more important I don't want to spend time learning something that I will have to unlearn later (bad habits).

So, considering my situation...should I bother attempting to learn to beatmatch manually or focus my attention elsewhere?

2nd question:

BPM...the program I am using will analyze the songs and tell me the BPM, but I remember seeing a discussion on the forum somewhere as to the accuracy of programs in recording BPM?

I'm going to be focused on spinning psy/dark-psy/old goa mostly, if that matters at all.

3rd question:

mixing in general - BPMs...

I'm assuming that you want to stay within the same general BPM while mixing? or make gradual changes? like start 140, have it go up like 2-3 per track? is there a generalized limit in terms of how far you can jump without it sounding like shit or is that too generalized of a question?

I mean, when I tried to throw a 120 and a 145 together it train wrecked and sounded pretty horrible, but I'm pretty bad so....

4th question:

cue points and mixing...the manual of my software walked me through setting up cue points, but I'm not sure if I'm using them 'properly'

like, I can set the cue point right at when the kick is about to start so that when I hit a breakdown on Track A I hit the cue number of Track B but that seems a little abrasive (though I might just be fucking it up)

Or, is this better...I had a breakdown in Track A that lasted ~26 seconds before the kick came back, and I had another song with a cool intro that was around 35 seconds before the kick,

So I placed a cue in Track A right when the breakdown started, and a cue in Track B ~9 seconds in..

so I played Track A and then when the indicator was on Cue 1 I cut the lows from Track A and hit Cue 1 on Track B....sounded pretty decent, the breakdown stuff + intro from Track B was nice, and then the kick from Track B + highs/mids from Track A was pretty cool...

then as Track A played out I opened up the frequency band on Track B so its kick came back...

is that a decent technique? :\

Any help/advice/comments are very much appreciated

Respect! Peace! and Psy

Dennis the menace
Moderator

Started Topics :  128
Posts :  2899
Posted : Nov 18, 2009 14:40
yes you should learn beatmatching manually. it will be usefull for sure. And you should also analyze your music. If you want to become successful you should apply some musical theory to your mixing, or it will sound like shit. Beatmixing sure avoids trainwrecks, but then there´s also beatmatching. We have beats bars and phrases, 4/8/16/32/64/128 and so on. A good way to mix is to match the beats bars and phrases on the trax to make a good transition.

I guess some ppl will say that there are no rules when it comes to psytrance, but imho there is, same rules as when producing.

A good spot to place the cuepoint is on the first beat in a new bar and not just a random kick and throw it in on the first beat of the new bar in the other track.

btw, beatmixing a 120 track with a 145 is not a good idea.
You would have to pitch it quite a lot and it would most likely sound like shit.

The best way to learn djing is practising it without shortcuts =)

Becktrank
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  38
Posts :  537
Posted : Nov 18, 2009 16:16
you shoul learn beathmatching manually [2]

if you inted to play ing gigs u never know when you`ll find the epic cdj 100 to play at a party. I dont care if the dj is playing in the computer or whatever (for me nothin better than cdj when it comes to dj set) but you should know the basics.

i dont undestarnd the cue intro and break thing, try to explain this better, did u mixed the breakdown for a song with the intro of another and droped the base of the new song after it ?

anyway besides some basic rules as dennis said and i quite agree with him, just thrust your ears, if u made a trick and it sounded good to u....           ``We shall not cease from exploration - And the end of all our exploring - Will be to arrive where we started - And know the place for the first time.``

bahia
willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  93
Posts :  2822
Posted : Nov 19, 2009 11:37
Alright I'm definitely glad that you two made those comments....sure it was mad easy to just press the sync button on the software but what I've been practicing with is loading up two songs of the same BPM (or slightly different, like 3-4 difference max), playing one track on speakers and trying to listen to the other in my headphones...

I mean, its obvious to my ears if I'm train wrecking when I put the crossfade in the middle and put the tracks on top of each other but its a little trickier trying to tell when ones on speakers and ones on my ear...I'm assuming that this will come in time (i mean, ive only been playing with this for the past couple days...)

However! I find it really cool to see the scrolling wave form of the songs, and what I've found works rather nicely (and relatively quickly) is nudging the track forward or backwards and trying to align the wave forms of the kicks/bass together..

is this another form of cheating that I shouldn't get in the habit of doing? Is focusing on developing that ability to beatjuggle (apologies if thats the wrong term) between what I hear on speakers/headphones the 'preferred method'?

Dennis, you said that you should apply some musical theory...what theories/concepts would be the best to read up on? Idk if I mentioned this but I have ZERO music background besides knowing what I like...

I mean, 4/4 timing means that there are 4 beats for every bar right...and a phrase is 8 bars? I've been reading that in some (the most common example I've seen is House - which I don't like at all) forms of electronic music the general convention is that new sounds are introduced every phrase or so, and dropped out in the same relative fashion as the song plays out...does a lot of psy operate under these same principles?

About the cue points...So say I do what you suggested and place the cue point on the first beat of a new bar in Track A, and then wait for the first beat of a new bar in Track B. Is my goal to hit Track A's cuepoint at the exact right moment in Track B and don't even listen to Track A through my headphones, just send it right to speakers?

On another note is a good majority of psy-trance produced in 4/4 timing?

Is it possible to mix songs with different timings or does that mean that they'll auto-wreck? Is this why some songs seem to refuse to beat-match together no matter how much I nudge them back and forth?

My goal by the end of the month is to make a mix thats at least a couple tracks long so what I've been attempting to do is assemble a list of tracks starting at say, 130 BPM and then gradually up the BPM through track selection until I hit ~160...sound like a good goal?

I vastly appreciate the input by the way, this is all extremely helpful

Mucho respect to you guys for taking time out to enlighten a noob
supergroover
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  39
Posts :  1505
Posted : Nov 19, 2009 12:44
It would be most recommended to learn to beatmix by heart uh.. ear. I usually listen to both channels through headphones and adjust the one that the public is not hearing. After some more practicing you ll learn to differentiate between the tracks.

It might work to beatmatch by vision but i would not recommend to use only that. Because you can beatmatch everything by ear but only your pc by vision. Nudging them back and forth is exactly what you do if you are beatmatching. But try not to do it while watching the screen.

Dennis is probably talking about mixing harmonically. Meaning you mix tracks that fit eachothers scale. There is a few topics about it here somewhere.

New sounds are indeed usually thrown in every 8 or 16 bars. Or new sequences of sounds. So it makes sense to keep track of where the tracks are. But beatmatching is more important for the public than phrasematching at the start of your dj career i'd say You could still get away by getting it right on 2 beats --> make sure snares are hitting at the same time.

Do always listen to your tracks playing together after you have hit the cuepoint because often they are close but not exactly fitting perfectly. Also you can have some phasing problems sometimes if they are not perfectly fitting.

99,9 % of psy is 4/4. So it should be possible to mix most tracks together nicely.

If you are djing you rarely go quickly from 130-160. Unless you are playing 6 hours.
Mostly you ll have about 2 hours to play and I normally fit my style of music to who is playing before me and after me. Also the time of night matters and what style people seem to like most.

I never pitch more than 3 bpm. Maybe on pcs it sounds ok. But on cdj's it rarely sounds good to my ears. So try a few things out with pitching and listen to how it sounds to you compared to the original tempo.
It usually works really well to record your mix and listen to it afterwards. You ll hear lots of small things you didnt hear when you were mixing. This can help you improve alot!


Good luck!

Becktrank
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  38
Posts :  537
Posted : Nov 19, 2009 17:02
yeah try to mix with ears, not with eyes, at the end you`ll see you dont need no screen. what i do is firts i beathmatch the beat of incoming trak with the first beat of a first bar of the outcoming, then i hear both on headphones (normally the incoming is with the bass cuted, so i adjust the phone so i can hear the incoming louder than the outcoming, it works for me) when made ur adjustments and u feel both are running together in the same bpm without draft to quickly you can either open the incoming track channel (in theory it would be already beathmatche and phrasematched) but if you think you spend to much time or whatever you can hit cuepoint and beatchmatch again, but this time you will need just to match the right beats cause you have done all the adjustments before, so just match the beats and open the incoming channel.
I always open the incoming channel with the bass all cuted and mid and hi with some cuts.

Now, just think that both tracks you have playing are like two jigsaw puzzles. You can use the piece of both puzzles (mid and hi`s) to create a unique third one. But have in mind that not all every pieces will fit together, that part is that you`ll need most you hear, it will say to you what pieces fits and whats not, so when you are mixing IMHO you are picking pieces of two jigsaw (two tracks) and creating a third unique one, now just be creative, there is really no rules. You will know the right time to swap the bases, most of the times it will be at the end of a phrase (32, 64 or 128 beats)

Try to experiment around. You can enter with one track, swap the bases, let the outgoing track build up to explode with the bass of the incoming, when the outcoming xplodes bring its bass again, and again after it bring back the bass of the incoming....ah theres so much thing you can do...try to experiment around, and make it so you dont depend of screens cause its all about ears
          ``We shall not cease from exploration - And the end of all our exploring - Will be to arrive where we started - And know the place for the first time.``

bahia
psy-junky
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  11
Posts :  2151
Posted : Nov 20, 2009 06:29
Very nice advice in this thread ... becktrank, supergroover thanks for the detailed responses.           "Whoever said the best things in life are free... obviously grew their own bud"
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