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Adern Flexor: what to get to run it ?
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Seppa
Started Topics :
8
Posts :
485
Posted : Dec 14, 2008 00:47:53
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Ladies and gents, I'm thinking about getting flexor.
The only problem is how?
If I'm not mistaken flexor is only available for creamware dsp.
So I would like to know a few things:
1 Scope system ect... these are sound cards with dsp, I have no intention to use the sounds card but just the dsp, is that possible. Is there just a dsp version.
2 What system do I need to get to be confortable dsp wise? keep in mind I want to spend as little as possible and I don't want a twenty meter card(just being funny)
I thank you all in advance.
ps: Spindrift I know you won't miss this thread. |
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assaf
IsraTrance Full Member
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66
Posts :
242
Posted : Dec 14, 2008 02:18
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as far as i know, scope soundcards dont like to be slaves and thats a problem, i tried once a combination when i had my fireface 400, in the end i used the pulsar 2 like an hardware device using midi and audio cables cause i didnt want to use the pulsar as my master, and it was to much for me and i let it go... maybe i am worng but i know some creamware freaks, some use it as a soundcard, some bought a whole computer just for it, and they send cables... i hope im wrong cause than i might be interested too  |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
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33
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1560
Posted : Dec 14, 2008 03:11
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I never had a need for another soundcard along with the Scope, so I cannot say anything about how that will work out.
Scope is very good as the heart of the studio with all the patching possibilities that gives and that's always the approach I would recommend.
It has hardware ASIO with minimal latencies, the converters is quite good and using the digital I/O you can hook up the converters you need if you want many channels or higher quality.
And you want to run both your main soundcard and Scope with ASIO drivers which I guess will be an issue.
There are versions with no I/O but they are intended either as a booster for an existing card or for use with XTC mode.
If you find one of those more than likely it will not come with software other than for XTC and hence not be a good deal for you.
I would really consider replacing the soundcard you are currently using with Scope, because any other approach does seem awkward and asking for trouble.
Otherwise assafs suggestion to set up an extra machine for Scope usage is another option....then you send the audio via for example ADAT to you main machine. Seems to me that it would be more awkward and more costly than simply replacing whatever soundcard you currently use.
A 6DSP card can be found for around €300 (depending a lot on what plugs it comes with).
It will be possible to make fairly large patches with Flexor but you will for sure notice the limits quickly.
If you are ok with recording down to HD and just use one large or a few medium sized devices at the time it's ok.
A 14DSP card can be found for about €600 and usually have more plugs included as well as more than double the power.
Then you can combine cards and get for example a 2x6DSP or a 6DSP and an 15DSP SRB (booster card without I/O).
I would say try to get at least 12DSP total and just look out for deals to make sure you get enough chips for a good price and with some nice extra plugs.
The Powersamplers, Luna and Pulsar 1 cards is somewhat a waste of space today though, so look for 6DSP and larger cards.
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vipal
IsraTrance Full Member
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123
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1397
Posted : Dec 14, 2008 06:54
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imo creamware is a pain in the ass with good sound and amazing routing possibilities
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Seppa
Started Topics :
8
Posts :
485
Posted : Dec 14, 2008 10:52
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Thank you guys, I got a good Idea now what my options are . I'll have to think it through though. My beloved fireface is just been perfect for me to connect my hardware and runs perfect under osx and windows.So I guess just ditching it would be difficult for me.
On the other hand I red on the adern forum sometime ago that they intended to make the next version of their flexor native. I don't know if this is still on the table and I don't know how soon it will happen. Has anyone heard anything regarding that subject?
cheers |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Dec 14, 2008 14:22
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On 2008-12-14 06:54, vipal wrote:
imo creamware is a pain in the ass with good sound and amazing routing possibilities
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For me it never caused any pain. I used their cards fore a decade now and they have been stable and very easy to use in my experience. Of course learning the countless number of devices and modules available takes time, but to set up an environment and learn how to patch stuff around is very easy IMO.
But I often hear people who doesn't get along with it at all.
What is the pain factor according to you?
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On 2008-12-14 06:54, vipal wrote:
On the other hand I red on the adern forum sometime ago that they intended to make the next version of their flexor native. I don't know if this is still on the table and I don't know how soon it will happen. Has anyone heard anything regarding that subject? |
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It should become available as native as well as on Scope and even other DSP platforms.
The question is when that will be ready and if there will be any difference between the versions. Assaf claims that the port of existing DSP atoms will be identical, but I will be very curious to see if that is achieved and if so how much of a CPU hog it will be.
If you use OSX you have to wait for Scope 5 to be released before you can use it, so maybe in that case you should see how that turns out first.
Otherwise you would need something like an A16 to replace the fireface, but then you can patch you external sources trough the scope mixers and devices which is IMO a big part of the attraction with Scope.
It's basically like a big hardware setup where you can patch whatever you like wherever you like and by not using it as the main soundcard it will instead be like just feel cumbersome compared to using only VST's.
I guess this is why many feel it's a pain to use, because it means you have to change your way of thinking a bit.
I came to scope from a hardware approach and immediately felt at home having the sequencer running in to an external mixer and patching stuff around.
Being a modular geek you gotta love being able to patch stuff around freely.
A lot of folks is used to working with a sequencer as the main hub of the setup.
Others feel that even if they are used to an old hardware configuration they still think that the advantages it offer is outweighed by the convenience offered by a native approach.
And others might still prefer to still use external mixers and hardware.
Personally I feel that Scope gives me both better sound and a lot more convenience than I can get with hardware at a fraction of the cost, and it also provides even more flexibility than I could ever dream of achieving with a hardware setup.
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neuromantik
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
28
Posts :
593
Posted : Dec 14, 2008 15:40
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I'll keep this simple!
- sfp rules, rox, whatever.. 
- creamware and soniccore on the other hand are plain retarded when it comes to company policy and philosophy..
-- For instance, they charge outrageous 3rd party developer licence costs so that plugins may be made for the platform, news flash: Without 3rd party plugins such as flexor and solaris the card(s) is (are) pretty much worthless.. 
-- Stock plugins which were reasonably priced in 2000 haven't changed while competitors have gotten a LOT better (Minimax and Protone are great but should not be priced at 200eur, I mean that's half a Blofeld)
-- And in the case of Adern, because they refused to comply with case point (1) they were pratically banned from migrating along with new version of SFP in the works... Probably the best 3rd party plugin I've used and they managed to shoot it in the foot Now Adern is going native and as Spindrift said it might have more possibilities but I also believe sound quality will suffer..
-- Making stupid boxes for Tangerine Dream wannabes (ASB, Noah) rather than fixing bugs in the great but bug ridden modular 3 synth..
For the reasons listed (I'm a 7 year SFP user) I would in the end choose something more simple and perhaps limited but with better support from the maker. My 0.02 cents...
ps. I do love my Flexor3 and Modular3 and routing in general though.. I have yet to find an equal in musicality and ease of use with power in hardware (g2) and native (reaktor)
I don't use ideas. Every time I have an idea it's too limiting, and usually turns out to be a disappointment. But I haven't run out of curiosity. -RR |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Dec 14, 2008 17:06
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Just a few comments:
Quote:
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On 2008-12-14 15:40, neuromantik wrote:
-- For instance, they charge outrageous 3rd party developer licence costs so that plugins may be made for the platform, news flash: Without 3rd party plugins such as flexor and solaris the card(s) is (are) pretty much worthless..
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I strongly disagree...the bundle you get with the card and the free plugins is more than worth the cost of the card itself.
And although I don't know too much about the politics about releasing plugins for the platform I think the number of 3rd party products available speaks for it self that their policies can't be too bad.
I know that you could get the SDK for free anyway, but if you want to sell plugs they have a shop and handle keys and such and will have to charge for that.
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On 2008-12-14 15:40, neuromantik wrote:
-- Stock plugins which were reasonably priced in 2000 haven't changed while competitors have gotten a LOT better (Minimax and Protone are great but should not be priced at 200eur, I mean that's half a Blofeld) |
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It's not much higher prices than VST's. And for example Minimax you get as part of Synth and Sampler pack which you can choose when you get a card or upgrade to 4.5.
And if you think €200 is too much for the pro-tone there is many third party alternatives that is cheaper but still great. Zarg Pro-One is €98 in the winter sale.
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On 2008-12-14 15:40, neuromantik wrote:
-- And in the case of Adern, because they refused to comply with case point (1) they were pratically banned from migrating along with new version of SFP in the works... Probably the best 3rd party plugin I've used and they managed to shoot it in the foot Now Adern is going native and as Spindrift said it might have more possibilities but I also believe sound quality will suffer..
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What Assaf said in a short statement it seems to mostly be due to a lack of communication which frustrated him. That is now solved and Flexor will be available for Scope 5.
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On 2008-12-14 15:40, neuromantik wrote:
-- Making stupid boxes for Tangerine Dream wannabes (ASB, Noah) rather than fixing bugs in the great but bug ridden modular 3 synth..
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Selling hardware based around the same system makes sense to me even if I'm not a potential customer...they have a lot of value in all the DSP code they have developed and they need to capitalize on that to keep going as a company.
But I guess keeping a team of top-class DSP developers became too expensive and hardware was their only shot to try to avoid bankruptcy...which obviously failed but luckily Sonic Core have hired the DSP developers again and we should finally see the first major update since scope 3.
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neuromantik
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
28
Posts :
593
Posted : Dec 14, 2008 17:43
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Quote:
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On 2008-12-14 17:06, Spindrift wrote:
Just a few comments:
Quote:
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On 2008-12-14 15:40, neuromantik wrote:
-- For instance, they charge outrageous 3rd party developer licence costs so that plugins may be made for the platform, news flash: Without 3rd party plugins such as flexor and solaris the card(s) is (are) pretty much worthless..
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I strongly disagree...the bundle you get with the card and the free plugins is more than worth the cost of the card itself.
And although I don't know too much about the politics about releasing plugins for the platform I think the number of 3rd party products available speaks for it self that their policies can't be too bad.
I know that you could get the SDK for free anyway, but if you want to sell plugs they have a shop and handle keys and such and will have to charge for that.
...
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Ok I do agree with you on most of your points but I will state my position to explain why I made these statements:
I use my SFP platform for sound design and synthesis. That's it. No mastering, mixing, send/aux effects, no recording, pratically nothing except pure sound design. And taking that into account, the standard SFP synthesis philosophy and products are pretty weak. Most of the stock synthesizers are for emulation or vintage analog beasts, which although I have no basis for comparison, I hear sound quite good if not better. That doesn't insterest me in the slightest, whereas Flexor and Solaris are actually pushing boundaries in synthesis techniques like the Absynth, Reaktor, Massive and other non emulation synths. The last two offerings by SC were again other emulations of the Nord Lead and Virus so I'm told 
And in past times, especially with the upcoming release of the X-Cite platform which does sound appealling, it seems to me that what made SFP unique is going to disappear. Their new direction seems more recording mastering oriented and this shows on the number of plugins available in those areas. Wheareas if it wasn't for JB or the great and generous people at Adern, I doubt I would be using SFP today.
I'm still hopeful don't get me wrong, I've invested too much money, time and energy getting what I want to work just right to simple give up, sell it up and buy a UAD2/RME setup but I've been disappointed already too many times in the past.
I don't use ideas. Every time I have an idea it's too limiting, and usually turns out to be a disappointment. But I haven't run out of curiosity. -RR |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Dec 14, 2008 22:24
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Quote:
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On 2008-12-14 17:43, neuromantik wrote:
I use my SFP platform for sound design and synthesis. That's it. No mastering, mixing, send/aux effects, no recording, pratically nothing except pure sound design. And taking that into account, the standard SFP synthesis philosophy and products are pretty weak.
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Sure, the included plugs is mostly regular subtractive synths using the same set of DSP atoms. Still I would not call the capabilities of the modular limited without Flexor. It can do most kind of synthesis like wavetable, additive and FM (granular is the exception I can think of) and have some cool oscillators and filters if you like to make a patch that doesn't sound like a vintage emulation.
Comparing to Nord G2 or Reaktor it's maybe not more advanced, but does sound very good and is still very good value for money.
And how many times have you seen Flexor or Solaris mentioned in this forum compared to virus powercore?
Sure there is a little market for real synthesis freaks, but not enough for the platform to sustain on those and the masses obviously want emulations of the same synths that everyone else is using.
I agree that it would be a shame if SC would focus too much on mixing, but Scope is already established as a synthesis platform and whatever direction SC likes to take I think we will still see more synth devices appearing.
That Solaris 5 and a new version of Flexor is already in the pipeline is IMO about as much excitement I can handle for now anyway.
Even if SC went bankrupt and all development stopped it's still today MIII with Flexor is still the most flexible synthesis platform available and I could not be able to see myself abandoning it anywhere in the near future...updates and more devices is great but it's not like the platform is in desperate need of that.
And we have not yet seen what SC have been focusing on since the only plugs added to their shop after the acquisition has been 3rd party devices. So we have to wait and see what will be included in SFP 5 and what they will develop after that is complete.
Their cooperation with Bowen seems to me like it's an indication that they do view the synthesis aspect as important.
One thing they do have to consider is how the market looks...even in a psytrance forum like this there are a lot of discussions about UAD and Powercore.
To me that is quite strange since it's music based on synthesis, and if you haven't got great sounding source sounds it doesn't help if you have the greatest compressors and EQ's.
But obviously a lot of people think it's more important with the processing since platforms focusing on that sell a lot more.
Scope is by a very wide margin ahead in synthesis but when it comes to mixing they are at least perceived as the lesser alternative.
If they can change that it means that they get money to put in to continued development of the platform which is a good thing for us synthesis freaks as well.
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vipal
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Dec 15, 2008 09:26
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hi spindrift, nice to read your posts. i think were a bit in a loop, we went through this one time before but ok.
some notes:
for example that there is no uninstall, its such a drag, at least ten times i had te reinstall windows to be sure things were ok, also when you install, it never goes well in one run there are always instruments that did not completely install, so you have to beg people on z to send you the missing files and be lucky you can install them again to run your favo synth again.
i think its really an outdatet system.
i guess i had bad luck with my 6dsp scope card, hardware problem, blue screen of death every 2 hours and had to send it back, then it did not run on the newest driver, no support from CW on that, by incident i found an old driver on planetz that worked.
the shop that sold me the card got so tired of me coming back that they stopped selling CW.
it took so long to get the card back that i bought a motu828FW and i like it much more.
my intention is now to use it again (as you dont get any money for it with selling). i want to run it like a hardware unit on a seperate computer connected by optical to the motu synced in sx3 by spdif.
i miss the sidechainer of scope, never found anything that comes close to that. and one day i want to buy the guitar plugin its really awesome, and i want to dive into making basslines with the modular or with flexor, like you advised me long time ago. and i probably forgot at least 5 things that i will remember once i have it running again.
somehow its shit and somehow its brilliant. its a bit like having a 20 year old real vintage synth i guess (not that i have one).
but in general i would not advise anybody to buy a scopecard if its not a very cheap 2nd hand.
but one question to neuromantic: i was thinking to set it up again to use it for mixing, i love the big mixers, and they sound very good. why you dont do your final mix on scope? you use hardware for that?
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
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1560
Posted : Dec 16, 2008 18:51
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With your experience I can certainly see the pain.
I guess I have been lucky since I never had any install problems myself, and the only time I had to contact support was to get some keys, which they sorted out very fast.
But unfortunately if a company is on the verge of bankruptcy customer service easily becomes one of the last priorities is seems, and I heard more stories than yours about bad service from Creamware.
Hopefully that situation have improved somewhat with Sonic Core.
Regarding mixing on Scope I do hear a noticeable difference if I do the whole mix native or using Scope and at the minimum I run bass and kick on their own channels in the Scope mixer. Also it's nice to use the possibilities Scope provides for doing stuff like sidechain compression and filters controlled by envelope followers.
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faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht
Started Topics :
282
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3394
Posted : Dec 21, 2008 02:22
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