| Author
|
A thread that Hos nothing to do with music but all at the same time
|
sy000321
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
46
Posts :
1142
Posted : Jan 5, 2007 00:44
|
Quote:
|
On 2007-01-04 23:58, orange-atropa wrote:
does the nord come free with the patch if it does im in! 
|
|
lololo
  roll a joint or STFU :) |
|
|
|
UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Jan 5, 2007 03:02
|
Quote:
|
On 2006-12-28 06:22, D-Jade wrote:
Please tell me your thoughts and tell me i'm wrong. I'd love to hear it. I learned it all from psy and science.
Here is what I believe. In the beginning there was not just the “Big Bang” but in essence yes. There were the makings of the proper molecules that combined and came together to create what we know as the single cell organism.
|
|
There are quite a few steps missing but I'm sure you are jusy being brief to get to the interesting stuff quicker so as a working theory, yes. 
Quote:
|
These primordial life forms lived and died but they also had an innate energy within them that would not die after death.
|
|
Ok this is the interesting stuff. What exacty do you mean by "innate energy" and "not die after death"? If you are just talking about the energy contained within the atoms constituting the deceased primordial life form, then yes I agree.
If you mean anything else, you have to be much more precise about your description of the phenomenon. We can't read your mind despite what some websites might claim. 
Quote:
|
The energy created by their “life force” would go on to live even after they were deceased (even though they had no consciousness).
|
|
Now you have to also describe with more precision what you mean by "life force". What gave you the idea of "life force" and what evidence is there for this "life force"?
Then you have to explain what energy was created by this "life force" and how it was created. What process do you have in mind for all this to happen?
Quote:
|
This LF I believe radiated even after death into the new generations of their similar and dissimilar life forms to continue to create a more intricate being.
|
|
What evidence do you have for this "life force" radiating into next generations? Is this "life force" measurable? Can it be quantified?
If there is no physical evidence, what makes you believe that it exists? Is it because it sounds like a nice idea to you? Or is this the best explanation you can imagine for explaining natural phenomena like "life"? Did you read it somewhere and if so what evidence was given to back it up? Or does it fit in a larger view of how the universe functions? If so, please explain.
Quote:
|
There is an energy force within this planet of our Milky Way Galaxy that I’m sure many other planets of our kind may posses, but this energy is what creates intelligence.
|
|
There is allread a pretty good explanation, thanks to our friend Darwin, of what creates intelligence: Natural selection.
So what compels you to propose this alternative theory? Are you disatisfied with the natural selection explanation? Do you detect flaws in its logic or application? Are there things that you feel can not be explained by the theory of evolution?
Quote:
|
As different species and forms of life live and die they radiate electrical and chemical impulses that are not only perceived by every other living creature but they are absorbed at the same time.
|
|
Electrical and chemical processes do not radiate but that aside, if electricity is being discharged and chemicals released, this can be measured. What is the nature of these radiated energies? How do other organisms perceive them? What receptors are triggered by these impulses?
And in what way are they absorbed? Is this measurable.
Quote:
|
This perception of the consciousness is what keeps the species that are still living, progressing though their lives and enhancing themselves via the fallout energy and chemical release of the generations before them.
|
|
Wow slow down! One step at a time! We were talking about "energy", "impulses" and "life force" up to know but it somehow transformed into "consciousness". You have to explain the details!
Secondly, you don't explain how the existing species "enhance themselves" from this "energy". What processes are going on here. Can they be quantified and measured? At the very least they need to be thoroughly explained to be able to evaluate their merit as a theory.
Thirdly, you don't explain how a few primordial life forms came by this "energy" and then somehow generated enough for all the generations that followed despite their increasing numbers. There is a mathematical problem there at the very least.
Quote:
|
This is how I believe myself to be who and what I am. Simply a product of the generations and energies that went before me.
|
|
Unfortunately, the way you describe your ideas here don't really mean much because they were much too vague. This is both the strength and weakness of your proposoal: Strength because it can't really be denied as there are too many undefined ideas but also weakness because it doesn't have any weight untill the individual concepts you use in your proposal are defined and explained.
Now you can spend alot of time fleshing out your ideas but I would suggest you start by answering this simple question: What is wrong with the more accepted theories (in scientific circles) that are allready arround now?
(And no intelligent design is not an accepted theory. Not only does it fail every single scientific criteria, it even fails in an American court of law were truely anything is possible!)
If you can truely answer that question it at least means one thing: You have studied the existing theories and comprehended them. More than can be said of the majority of people!
Quote:
|
What do you think as musicians and creators of our future?
D-JADE
|
|
Well, musician or not, I'm a hardcore rationalist. An atheist with an anti-theist penchant. I think religion and superstition are the greatest evil to mankind. They are the greatest cause for suffering, war and misery throughout the ages and the world.
Even today, open any newspaper and look at all the conflicts in the world. Show me one that does now have religion as its source. You won't find one. It is the 21st century for goodness sake and people are still killing themselves over fantasies. Its very high time this stops!
I think that religion and superstition are the result of ignorance, lazyness and misplaced arrogance. You have to pretty damned arrogant to say "Despite all lack of conclusive evidence in favor of <insert religion here>, despite an overwhelming amount of evidence against magic and the supernatural, despite people investing their whole lives in the search for real solid explanations for things, I'm going to ignore all that and just believe whatever my mind (or my parent's mind) fancies."
Religion is the search for personal (ego) comfort and the enemy of truth in all its forms. It abhors real scrutiny and the very plentifull evidence against it.
Look at the three major religions in the western world. They have been debunked entirely yet, millions upon millions of people still believe in them.
Oh sure they will concede a point here or there (the world isn't flat, isn't the center of the universe, wasn't created in 6 days etc etc) yet they never manage to join the dots:
If part of the religion is obviously hubris, why believe any other part of it untill some solid evidence is presented?
It is all just stories invented by humans. There is absolutely no reason to give them any credibility.
Would you respect a grown man that claims to believe in Santa Claus? Or the Tooth Fairy? Or anyt other fairy tale? So why should we respect religion? What makes it so special that it can honestly dodge all intellectual scrutiny and still be considerd a valid alternative to science? What has earned it such respect? What has earned it any respect at all actually?
I think that in the 21st century, religion and superstition should be ridiculed for the fairy tale that they are. Contrary to what many say (religious or not), it deserves no respect and the quicker people stop stepping so lightly in the presence of the oh so easily vexed religious ego, the quicker these childish farces can be exposed for what they are.
Now don't get me started allready.
Quote:
|
P.S. I know this ins't a forum for this sort of topic but I also know that you friends are of the utmost intelligence so I would simply like to hear your virtues. Thanks.
|
|
Virtues? Oh I don't know anything about that. I thought you wanted comments.
UnderTow
|
|
|
|
UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Jan 5, 2007 03:43
|
Quote:
|
On 2006-12-28 16:51, shamantrixx wrote:
This idea is arround for a long time. Consciousness is not a physicall property of our body. Science can't see it, measure it or define what it is.
|
|
One does not have to explain that which does not exist.
If it can't be measured or defined, it probably doesn't exist. And if it can't even be defined, it can not even be discussed.
Quote:
|
So technicly speaking... consciousness does not depend on thermodynamics or any other law that we've invented.
|
|
You can't on the one hand dimiss technical aspects like measurement and then claim a technical conclusion.
Btw, it is usualy said that we discovered the laws of thermodynamics, not invented it. But I suspect you are using the term "invent" in a derogatory fashion implying that the law does not describe actual physical properties of the world we live in but is rather a fancyful creation with absolutely no practical aplications whatsoever.
Of course, that idea would need some very serious substantiating which I doubt you can offer. I suggest you leave out the silly little word games unless you become a much better player!
Quote:
|
It's obvious that consciousness operates independently from our body and is capable to survive human death (near death experience etc.).
|
|
Nothing is less true! Besides the fact that we can't even be sure that consciousness is nothing more than an illusion created by our brains, there is absolutely no evidence of any operation independant of our body and certainly no evidence of any "life after death".
Of course, the concept that we are mere biological machines and that the greater part of what we experience as "consciousness" is a mere illusion, isn't the most palatable idea.
It means that we are much less than that which we might initialy think of ourselves. It means that we are mortal beyond recourse. It means that we, and everything else, is meaningless.
Not a very fun idea for those that seek (ego) comfort and self validation.
Quote:
|
Vedas talk about this model in a similar way. Remember... 4000 years ago Vedas talk about the spherical Earth. We have burned many until we finaly "proved" that the earth is spherical... and that was like few hundread years ago.
|
|
So they were right about the earth being round. Good for them! Now in what way does this validate any other ideaas they might have had? It doesn't.
It really doesn't matter what was written in any book or books so many years ago (or yesterday) if it doesn't give any solid explanations to support the theory.
Quote:
|
Many tribes in Africa also knew about the shape of the Earth long before we invent the inquisition that will later burn anyone with idea that the Earth is spherical.
|
|
Yep. And the major religions that were firm believers in the flat earth concept are still going strong today despite the unequivocal proof that the earth isn't flat. That doesn't say much good about the believers in those religions does it? Or any religions for that matter...
Quote:
|
A science is said to be useful if its development tends to accentuate the existing inequalities in the distribution of wealth, or more directly promotes the destruction of human life.
G. H. Hardy
|
|
Interesting quote. A very personal opinion of course which has no weight or bearing on the current discussion but, an interesting quote.
Or maybe not ...
Quote:
|
Nearly all ancient cultures believe in spirit of ancestors, reincarnation or some other form of afterlife.
|
|
I would rather choose the term "primitive cultures" but thats just me I guess.
Quote:
|
So we can be scientificly ignorant and believe that (once again) Vedas and other ancient knowlegdes are not valid
|
|
This is pretty childish. It isn't because someone is right about one thing that they are right about all things. Or the opposit.
Of course if you view scientists/atheist/whatever with such childish naievity, there is no wonder that you can not understand the scientific principles they propose.
Quote:
|
or we can start to notice the pattern of ignorance that spans trough our entire "scientific era". We believe we are advanced and scientific culture but the truth is far more bitter...
|
|
Great claims! Actually, it contains no substance. It is utterly empty. You don't describe one such pattern and how it relates to science.
Bla bla bla ...
Quote:
|
Men is a missing link between apes and human beeings.
|
|
What did you mean exactly? I'm sure that didn't quite come out right.
Quote:
|
It's the only species on this planet that's killing the members of it's own species simply for pleasure.
|
|
You need to watch alot more National Geographic Channel. Come on. This is such a silly argument. You are totaly ignorant of what goes on in the real world outside. Stop reading those crackpot books you read and get some real information.
As for humans, they just happen to be the best at what they do and if they choose to be mean and cruel, they will be the best at it.
That isn't much of an argument either way because humans can also use that superiority to do great things.
Quote:
|
Animals kill for food...
|
|
Sometimes. You obviously don't have cats do you?
Quote:
|
we kill for science, pleasure, beliefe and above all... out of ignorance.
|
|
Nice and vague again. Come with some actual examples and we can discuss the ethics of it. Otherwise you are just blowing hot air.
Quote:
|
btw: look for lectures from Michael Tsarian. He has a great understanding about the origins of life, consciousness and human history.
|
|
Wow. I did a bit of googling and this guy seems to be a total crackpot. Here is just one quote I found: "Michael Tsarian sees that Atlantis was a colony of these dark interstellar villains that "fell" to earth, as they were being pursued by star-agents of light."
Yabadabadoooo!!!!!
You actually believe any of that crap? You actually dare to write his name down as a recomendation? Either you are a star jester of monumental deviousness (the eternal optimist in me wrote that bit) or a complete and utter fool (the eternal realist in me wrote that bit).
UnderTow |
|
|
|
UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Jan 5, 2007 04:01
|
Quote:
|
On 2006-12-28 20:13, D-Jade wrote:
I really appreaciate both Shamanatrix and bukboy's posts. To you Bukboy... I have a life and great one at that. Not looking for anything more than just an understanding of what i'm living, loving, and enjoying conciousness.
|
|
If you want to understand things, start with some good popular science books. Stay away from the new age section. Some authors worth checking:
Biology, evolution, natural history: Stephen Jay Gould, Richard Dawkins. (Particularly pertinent to topic would be R. Dawkins - Selfish Genes and R. Dawkins - The blind watchmaker).
Consciousness, Philosophy of thought, Cognitive sciences: Douglas R. Hofstadter, Daniel C Dennett. Stay away from John Sarle and only read Roger Penrose if you are willing to follow through because he does take a very long detour to get to the ideas he has... But it is good to read the opposing views. (And no the crackpot stuff like Michael Tsarian is not the oppposing view. It is just utter rubish).
Physics, Relativity, String theory: Stephen Hawking, Brian Greene.
Some easy going philosophy: John Pirsig or, at a more introductory level "Sophy's world" by some Swedish (I think) author.
My brain is finished for the day so I can't think of any other names right now.
Quote:
|
Psy has brought me many things and upon one an understanding of what is real. But at the same point I question what I do not know. If you don't than you will forever exist as the ape that lives only to survive and not the one to live the best and most expressional life that you can.
|
|
Hurray hurray!
Quote:
|
That being said. I love this group. I have found more intellectual minds to conjure up and debate thoughts in this forum than any before. Thank you all (and yes, I'm a modern, technological, and musical hippy as are most of you).
|
|
Hey no insulting here. No need to call anyone a hippy.
Quote:
|
I would like to post a Divx that I have that is in two parts. One of which is 303 Megs and the other is 280. Does anyone know how I can share it? It is from Dale Pond a physicist that speaks deeply into not just my theories but the astrophysics and thermodynamics that we are speaking of.
|
|
It isn't on youtube? Do you have a title name?
Quote:
|
Cheers to all and in the new year enhance not only your life but others through your beautiful musical notes. Cheers to all.
|
|
And the same to you!
UnderTow |
|
|
|
sy000321
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
46
Posts :
1142
Posted : Jan 5, 2007 04:02
|
On 2007-01-05 03:43, UnderTow wrote:
Quote:
|
shamantrixx wrote:
Quote:
|
btw: look for lectures from Michael Tsarian. He has a great understanding about the origins of life, consciousness and human history.
|
|
Wow. I did a bit of googling and this guy seems to be a total crackpot. Here is just one quote I found: "Michael Tsarian sees that Atlantis was a colony of these dark interstellar villains that "fell" to earth, as they were being pursued by star-agents of light."
Yabadabadoooo!!!!!
|
|
hehehehehe
i wish i had googled that
if you take some time to search for it scientologists believe in similar stuff... i guess there's a belief for everyone, mostly if you _really_ want to believe
roll a joint or STFU :) |
|
|
|
UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Jan 5, 2007 04:09
|
Quote:
|
On 2006-12-29 07:51, shamantrixx wrote:
Why medical "science" refuses to investigate ayurveda and vedic medicine and could it be that it would reflect of drug sale income?
|
|
I Actually saw a documentary about that relatively recently. Conclusion: Long live the placebo effect!
Your argument that if you don't look for evidence you won't find any goes both ways.
(As for the rest of your points. Never argue with a fool ...)
UnderTow |
|
|
|
sy000321
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
46
Posts :
1142
Posted : Jan 5, 2007 04:16
|
Quote:
|
On 2007-01-05 04:01, UnderTow wrote:
Some authors worth checking:
Biology, evolution, natural history: Stephen Jay Gould, Richard Dawkins. (Particularly pertinent to topic would be R. Dawkins - Selfish Genes and R. Dawkins - The blind watchmaker).
Consciousness, Philosophy of thought, Cognitive sciences: Douglas R. Hofstadter, Daniel C Dennett. Stay away from John Sarle and only read Roger Penrose if you are willing to follow through because he does take a very long detour to get to the ideas he has... But it is good to read the opposing views. (And no the crackpot stuff like Michael Tsarian is not the oppposing view. It is just utter rubish).
Physics, Relativity, String theory: Stephen Hawking, Brian Greene.
Some easy going philosophy: John Pirsig or, at a more introductory level "Sophy's world" by some Swedish (I think) author.
|
|
hey! thanks! great list of authors i hope to read soon
i really like non-scientists like Aldous Huxley on perception and some W.S. Burroughs texts, like one were the theorises about virus on the development of speech on apes (?).
W.S.B. was a real crackpot, but not in the sense of Michael Tsarian
roll a joint or STFU :) |
|
|
|
Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
Posts :
3709
Posted : Jan 5, 2007 10:50
|
Quote:
|
On 2007-01-05 00:21, bukboy wrote:
Freeflow - ever heard the term dont bullshit a bullshitter?
This hippy crap has the exact same form as pure bull. The devil only lies 5% of the time rings true. Its all constructed in the little cracks between evidence that cant really be seen. I smell a rat whenever I see this approach.
It comes from reading a lot of philosophy papers. Philosophers make gr8 effort to be unambiguously understood, and provide gr8 support for each and every statement, not to mention do their best to look at the benefits (and pitfalls)of the other theory. Mysticism is exactly the opposite.
Just as science discards theories so do I laugh at the next conspiracy/mystical theory to b debunked. The amazing thing is that the same people that make this stuff up will latch on to the next cock and bull story just coz they are drawn to anything that sounds cool. Coolness is a definite sign of fakery.
Do some logic, dont take my word for it. If u had done any logic u would know that the forms of all these arguments commit some fallacy or other. Again and again and again and again until kotch time.
By the By I checked out the telepathy scientist page. The reason Y the scientists dont care about his theory is because he makes no attempt to explain how telepathy works (with evidence). He just says it is.
The measure of the importance of a theory is its usefullness and its exposition of unintuitive insights that were not known about but are true when checked (surprisingly).
Anyway... I can see that it is really pointless to argue. There is not a single doubt in my mind that I am not wrong but it doesnt help to convince any1 with logic that doesnt respect logic in the 1st place.
The world is such a f'n strange place with zillions of things to discover, carefully analyse and learn from. Super - stimulating and real. Dont hide away from it with fake made up crap.
|
|
Hey bukboy! thanks for the lecture, i think i needed it
i will ponder your words.
i think our own minds is our big enemies if we are not in balance, and this balance seems to vary from time to time, so to know when to restrain one self from certain things is very difficult, thinking twice or more is good.
i dont think being hostile lead to something positive, i hope i did not insult anyone by saying what i said.
cheers
|
|
|
|
shamantrixx
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
549
Posted : Jan 5, 2007 18:02
|
@ under tow:
Quote:
| Sh: Animals kill for food...
UT: Sometimes. You obviously don't have cats do you? |
|
In fact I have 2 cats for more than 8 years.
Quote:
| Sh: we kill for science, pleasure, beliefe and above all... out of ignorance.
UT: Nice and vague again. Come with some actual examples and we can discuss the ethics of it. Otherwise you are just blowing hot air. |
|
OK... I'm blowing hot air
Quote:
| UT: I did a bit of googling and this guy seems to be a total crackpot. Here is just one quote I found: "Michael Tsarian sees that Atlantis was a colony of these dark interstellar villains that "fell" to earth, as they were being pursued by star-agents of light." |
|
But hey!!! You seem to blow hot air too. Calling someone a total crackpot based upon your belief and without looking into evidence is very, very hot air.
Quote:
| I would rather choose the term "primitive cultures" but thats just me I guess. |
|
Watch out!!! Here comes some more hot air. Well... you have to call them "primitive" in order to take their rights away and throw them under your "advanced" management. But I see no foundations for you to judge who is primitive and who is advanced.
You've done a great job from a perspective of PR but it's more than obvious that you blow more hot air than anyone else here. So I'll take your advice and stop arguing with fools
live long and prosper.
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
|
|
|
shamantrixx
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
549
Posted : Jan 5, 2007 18:07
|
Quote:
|
On 2007-01-04 14:37, Freeflow wrote:
shamantrixx - why do you bother with these people? you dont need to persuade anyone. of course it would be nice if people could open their minds from time to time and just let lose of the conventional ideas.
|
|
I think that it's important to have a topics like this one. It's not a matter of changing the minds of the people who are a part of this discussion... but it matters from the perspective of others who will be able to read this from a "third party" perspective. For them this is an alternative view they can stumble upon. And that's all that matters.
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
|
|
|
MercuryFall
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
52
Posts :
711
Posted : Jan 6, 2007 00:15
|
I have to say i'm quite impressed with the views expressed by shamantrixx in this thread...
makes me want to dig deeper...
care to send me a few suggested reading, here or by PM?
thanks in advance and respect
oh, and on the subhect of 5% vs 95%, I have another one: in order to explain universe with the laws of gravity, scientists are perplex because it seems 95% of the matter is missing... That's why they came up with the dark matter theory, but one single particle remains to be discovered.... ok, gone to do my homeworks now |
|
|
|
shamantrixx
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
549
Posted : Jan 6, 2007 01:16
|
you have a PM
and you're welcome!
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
|
|
|
bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Jan 6, 2007 10:31
|
Bizzaro, Bizzaro, Bizzaro!
May I ask what shamantrix and mercury falls does for a living and how old u are?
|
|
|
|
shamantrixx
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
549
Posted : Jan 6, 2007 15:18
|
I don't see why not. I'm graphic designer, age 30.
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
|
|
|
.Telektonon.
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
17
Posted : Jan 6, 2007 17:04
|
Buckboy ……… are you genuinely interested in their personal lives or just wanting to try and confirm your pre-conceived judgments of them?
Age nor profession is relevant to this thread, as with your negative perception of Asian countries.
|
|
|
|
|
