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A little help with my live set (loudness)
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Glitch_CapeTown
IsraTrance Junior Member
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952
Posted : May 22, 2008 19:36:43
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hey everybody..
i played my live set at 2 indoor parties and at both, i had the same problem, where my music sounds at first very quiet until i boost the gain on the dj mixer... and then it sounds very overcompressed and when the kick and bass cut out, everything else just gets REALLY loud and sounds like its screaming 
the crowd didnt seem to mind to much, but it made me cringe :/
i dont usually use a compressor on my master buss.. just l2, and i dont pull it down to low, just above the peaks, to make sure that none of my live elements get too loud..
what should i do to achieve more gain in my tracks, without peaking in my DAW, because im at the 0 on the master fader, and my sound cards volume is on maximum....
thank you so much in advance for any advice 
peace
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Alex Roudos
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 22, 2008 20:42
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How do your tracks sound on your studio/other systems you tried them? Do you still have the same problem?
To me it seems that what you experienced is created by the venue's sound installation, more specifically by the limiter they probably used.
When you boosted the gain on the mixer, the signal was heavy limited/over compressed as you said(because of the kick and bass, as they carry almost all the sound energy of the audio signal and trigger the limiter to maintain a constant db level), and when these heavy elements(kick, bass) were out the signal was too loud according to your mixer gain settings, probably free of limiting at this stage.
Maybe i'm wrong, but i have experienced the same in smaller bars/clubs where a limiter is a must to prevent the djs from going really loud(and keeping the db output to the maximum "legal" allowed level) because of the neighbors and consequently, the police.
All in all, if your tracks sound ok everywhere(without the problem you described) except in cases like the 2 parties you mentioned, it's their problem not yours.
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vegetal
Vegetal/Peacespect
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1055
Posted : May 22, 2008 22:12
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Alex Roudos
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 22, 2008 22:31
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I totally missed the part you are saying that you were playing live. Sorry I don't know if when playing live other factors come into the game, as vegetal mentioned. But still, if your problem occurs after you boost the gain on the dj mixer then it might not be a fault from your side, if you don't change anything on your L2 after boosting the gain on the dj mixer and if everything sounds right before/without boosting the gain on the mixer again.
Did you have any sound check prior to the event?
A friend told me once that the biggest mistake we make is that we believe we live, when in reality we are sleeping in the waiting room of life. |
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
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Posted : May 23, 2008 03:58
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some musts
1. dont ever use shity motherboard soundcard ( more volume with no compression , also mini PL sux ass)
2. once u have the soundcard use the asio drivers , they are way louder then non asio ones ( more volume with no compression)
3. press your soundcards +4DB boost ( more volume with no compression)
4. chat with the soundman... often if your signal is not hot like the rest he can easy boost his limiter up or just open more volume.. if its big systems they usualy use only 70% of the power possible to not ruin the system
5. use gooood cables
6. make sure your soundcard output is on the maximum or -2db as well all the channels , specialy if u do use L2 on your master channel in the app
hmm i think this should cover all.. |
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Glitch_CapeTown
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 23, 2008 17:31
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thank you so much guys for all the replies!!
im starting to understand what the problem is... the thing is that before i boost the mixer gain its pretty soft, so i cant really hear if there is a big effect on the overall sound, if u know what i mean...
My basic live setup is Fujitsu Siemens Laptop (yes its very crap!  still saving money for a new one haha) and a Alesis IO|2 USB Sound card with balanced outputs.. and then just my midi controller...
the only driver that i can find to work with my sound card is the one that comes with it on the cd.. it seems to be the same driver which is available on their website... but i will try find an ASIO driver for my sound card if this is possible???
my sound card doesnt have any +4 db boost..
its a rather small bar, and there is no sound man no sound checks either... i just had to mix in straight after the DJ's, i was slightly un-impressed, but hey, im still a noob so i dont mind
i just plug the RCA cables from the CDj's into my sound card.. i think they must be alrite, the quality, because they sound fine on with the cdj's?? idk hehe
hey elad, pls explain point number 6 again in slightly more detail pls, do u mean the master bus in my application, or the volume knob on the actual hardware soundcard?? coz on the sound card was set to maximum.. and in master buss its on 0 after L2...
what do u suggest?
thanks again for the advice 
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UnderTow
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Posted : May 23, 2008 23:08
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Glitch, in your studio at home, how does the volume of your live set compare to commercial releases?
Commercial releases are usually crushed in mastering. If your live set isn't, it will sound much much softer. Increasing the gain won't help as you just hit the maximum of the DJ mixer and the PA. (And probably the crappy limiters most cheap PAs have). That usually sounds like shit.
So the solution is "mastering"...
UnderTow |
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acidkills
IsraTrance Junior Member
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26
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431
Posted : May 23, 2008 23:40
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Quote:
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On 2008-05-23 17:31, Glitch_CapeTown wrote:
My basic live setup is Fujitsu Siemens Laptop (yes its very crap! still saving money for a new one haha) and a Alesis IO|2 USB Sound card with balanced outputs.. and then just my midi controller...
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I use Fujitsu Siemens and its OK for purpose, and actually sound card on it was positive suprise.. That Alesis sound card should be good but with no ASIO, oh man..
U tried downloading from alesis.com?
I have low cost audiotrak maya 5.1 and have normal output, same as referance.. Both in Live and on decks..
And mixer, which mixer u use? Or u dont? Gain on mixer.. Even beter if u have mixer with auto limiting, so u dont have to use L2..
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Glitch_CapeTown
IsraTrance Junior Member
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36
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952
Posted : May 24, 2008 00:22
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Quote:
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On 2008-05-23 23:08, UnderTow wrote:
Glitch, in your studio at home, how does the volume of your live set compare to commercial releases?
Commercial releases are usually crushed in mastering. If your live set isn't, it will sound much much softer. Increasing the gain won't help as you just hit the maximum of the DJ mixer and the PA. (And probably the crappy limiters most cheap PAs have). That usually sounds like shit.
So the solution is "mastering"...
UnderTow
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there is about a diference in average -3.5 db between my track and commercial release..
so would i just try and compress it perfectly? or is there sumthing easier to do?
yea i know that mastering is the solution, but im wondering how it can be achieved on a live set??
and yea on the alesis website, there is no asio drivers, and i cant find any specific to my sound card....
would the asio4all drivers be suitable or not?
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
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158
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5306
Posted : May 24, 2008 00:29
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3.5 DB on big system is not your issue im sure
and u use L2 then how about just crush 3 DB
about no.6 yeah i was talking on the master channel in both your software and your soundcard
u should have asio drivers it says so on the site... if u dont know nothing about it in sure 99% this is your main problem
but if u say its just 3.5 db diffrence hmm.. maybe its realy just mastering that u need |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : May 24, 2008 00:38
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Elad, ASIO drivers shouldn't make any difference to the level. (Unless you are going through the windows mixer and the Windows mixer is set to a lower level. This has nothing to do with ASIO being louder).
UnderTow |
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Boobytrip
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
39
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988
Posted : May 24, 2008 01:36
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Quote:
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On 2008-05-22 19:36:43, Glitch_CapeTown wrote:
hey everybody..
and then it sounds very overcompressed and when the kick and bass cut out, everything else just gets REALLY loud and sounds like its screaming
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To me it also seems that your signal is being squashed by the PA limiter, when kick+bass are playing you're above the PA limiter's threshold, so it lowers the overall level. When they cut out, the limiter stops working, and the rest of the sounds (that apparently are below the threshold) get to sound really loud as the limiter eases up and the signal isn't limited anymore. I would just lower the signal going to the club PA by a few dB (using the dj mixer), so it isn't limited by the club PA anymore. This is useless anyway, since you have an L2 running.
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bandarlog
Bandarlog
Started Topics :
44
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809
Posted : May 24, 2008 03:38
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Mesq
Reality Pixie
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34
Posts :
671
Posted : May 24, 2008 05:29
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If you have a limited master output it shouldn't be a problem...
Just find out what the threshold on the house limiter is... |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
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33
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1560
Posted : May 24, 2008 10:13
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I don't see how it could have to do with the soundcard or cabling since you obviously can get enough gain when boosting the signal on the mixer.
The problem is the perceived loudness of your mix and it's not a simple issue of a lower RMS that can be fixed by limiting.
Probably the culprit is spectral balance.
Mixes that have too much bass will seem more quiet since most the energy is in the low end.
So even if the RMS value might seem ok it will be perceived too quiet.
Also check for sharp peaks in the frequency response.
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