faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht
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Posted : Jul 31, 2011 21:06:28
I really like the sound of simple 808 "thud" type kicks but i find it very hard to make them sit right in a mix. i like how they lack snap, but when there is a lot going on it seems the kick just gets swallowed in the track.
also this type of kick since it is basically low end hit without much snap gets lost on shitboxes like car speakers and laptop speakers, and is really a bitch to get in good phase with the basslines (again this is really noticeable on shitboxes that have a tough time reproducing electronic music as it is).
PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jul 31, 2011 22:29
never tried it but would love to hear, what i would try is first compression followed by limiting and rape the sound lol (maybe in parrallel if it s too savage, the limiter to limit uncompressed peak )i guess in my distressor it would sound good too.. should sound good with some inflator and/or oxford limiting too(again maybe in parrallel).. good eq ... layering maybe... some ideas to try..
psycox
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jul 31, 2011 23:04
years ago it tried to use the 808 kicks. this time where my first trys with buzz. i think it has a lot of low end in last part of the kick. to avoid phase problems i would try to build a bass sample from the kick. i think this must work for fast darktrance
faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht
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Posted : Aug 1, 2011 00:36
Quote:
On 2011-07-31 23:04, psycox wrote:
i think it has a lot of low end in last part of the kick. to avoid phase problems i would try to build a bass sample from the kick. i think this must work for fast darktrance
yah but i don't want to go this route of using the kick's tone for bass as well. i have basslines going from some nice synths and the music is 130-150 bpm.
what you say about the phase is the issue here yah. if you cut it too short as to not touch the bass you lose most of the point of using an 808 kick... probably what pom said, extreme settings on comp/limit/eq. maybe even some slight overdrive/distortion - in an effort to get those lower freqs to stand out earlier in the sample, and then hopefully when cut and faded a bit you don't lose the oomph/ if i had a tube these days, i would run it mildly through it.
The Way Back
https://faxinadu.bandcamp.com/album/the-way-back
Colin OOOD
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Posted : Aug 1, 2011 03:18
I'd suggest mixing the rest of the track around the kick, so that what there is of the natural snap comes through the mix. This will probably result in a mix with less top end than you're used to - 'warmer' in other words - but as long as everything is proportional it won't be in a problem. A modest boost on the kick around 2k-3k might give it a little extra poke so you don't end up with a mix that's too dull in general, but I think if you have the aim of working with this kind of kick, clarity will have as much to do with how you treat the entire rest of the mix, as it does with how you treat the kick itself.
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faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht
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Posted : Aug 1, 2011 03:56
Quote:
On 2011-08-01 03:18, Colin OOOD wrote:
I'd suggest mixing the rest of the track around the kick, so that what there is of the natural snap comes through the mix. This will probably result in a mix with less top end than you're used to - 'warmer' in other words - but as long as everything is proportional it won't be in a problem. A modest boost on the kick around 2k-3k might give it a little extra poke so you don't end up with a mix that's too dull in general, but I think if you have the aim of working with this kind of kick, clarity will have as much to do with how you treat the entire rest of the mix, as it does with how you treat the kick itself.
yah i hear yah, a bit tricky but i am trying to work with this type of kick sound.
i guess for more oldschool trance/techno and for today's minimal it is not as much of an issue, but the tunes i am having these issues with are full of layers. also it is hard enough racing the loudness wars as it is without fighting your own kick sound
i was actualy almost distraught enough to consider opening 7 track projects and changing the kicks but i think i will try to wrestle with it a bit more.
The Way Back
https://faxinadu.bandcamp.com/album/the-way-back
minddoctorsmakeacid
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Posted : Aug 1, 2011 05:15
So what you like about those kicks is they're warmness and roundness right?
You either do what Colin said or...
Use that warmness of the low and add the clean hitech of the digital to the top end.
Use 2 kicks, 808 with Low Pass and Bazzism, PickLayer or other with Hi Pass.
You allways need the tap if you want your tunes to be listenable in all systems.
faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht
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Posted : Aug 1, 2011 05:58
the mono-hat-on-kick sound is VERY vulgar to my ears. like the kick sound in astral projection's TEN album, and the 3dVision stuff - really dislike this to say the least.
I am thinking to stick a bit of snap from Adern's KickMe onto a lowpassed 808, as per your idea.
also doing some of the stuff pom suggested, and in the mix stage what colin said.
perhaps i will experiment making 808 variations using all of you guy's suggestions and my own ideas, and then load all those onto a sampler and sort of test them out within my tracks, and when i feel the right tone use that one.
it is kinda wierd looking for a proper kick AFTER you finish a tune will lead to some mix re-work, but i was going to do that anyhow.
klippel
Stereofeld
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Posted : Aug 1, 2011 10:52
my "special" tricks:
- if you use battery (or any sampler that allows you to edit the sample), zoom into the waveform and move the sample start to a maximum of the first waveforms in the beginning rather than a zero crossing which it usually starts of from. you can play with going along the wave up and down to see how it alters the sound. on a maximum it gives a clear snap in the kick and leaves the rest as is. example of kick treated like this here:
now the kick nicely cuts through the mix (i know that example is more of a techno track and is not busy in the mix, but you can hear the sharp transient of the 808 nicely)
- and if you are on cubase, you could just insert quadrafuzz on the kick channel and leave it like it is. instant punch and presence that does not kill the warmness, to mutch for psy kicks most of the time, but really nice on very warm kicks like a 808 one to start of with.
Nectarios
Martian Arts
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Posted : Aug 1, 2011 11:48
Quote:
On 2011-08-01 05:58, faxinadu wrote:
the mono-hat-on-kick sound is VERY vulgar to my ears. like the kick sound in astral projection's TEN album, and the 3dVision stuff - really dislike this to say the least.
Its all about what hat layer sound you are using, how short it is and how loud you have it mixed in the track. The 3D Vision sound abuses this method and I don't like it either, but you can pay attention to the process and you will not even identify the hat sound as an individual sound, you can use this process to add some nice top end information to the kick, almost as if you did with with the kick's pitch envelope alone.
going back to the original idea...the thing with the 808 kick is that is is what it is because its a mid click where the pitch envelope decays to the sustain/release stage ultra fast, leading to that glorious sustain sub note.
You have to build your track around it and it will get lost on small speakers, but it will sound massive on a big P.A.
If I absolutely wanted to use a classic 808 kick for a trance tune with a 16th saw bassline, I would let it be an 808 i.e. let the long release/sustained note play through and layer the bassline on the 2nd, 3rd and 4th notes, with the bottom end filtered out, for example somewhere around 120Hz and probably higher, then I would be vary careful about the notes the bassline would play so that they will fit the kick note.
You can rape the 808 kick a new arsehole in order for it to be short enough for a trance track and cut through on smaller speakers, but it won't have the sound of a classic 808 kick, it will be something else that might as well sound fine anyway.
PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Aug 1, 2011 12:44
yeah agree with klippel that a good trick, you don t need to start the kick on a zero crossing point it will give you a click , work great with many kicks , how i do it is ever in sound editor and cut it sample by sample until i find a sweet spot or in kontakt moving starting point like klippel mentionned.
faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht
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Posted : Aug 1, 2011 13:42
klippel
Stereofeld
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Posted : Aug 1, 2011 13:52
Quote:
On 2011-08-01 13:42, faxinadu wrote:
i rather my samples all start at the zero crossing. this way to make a click is not so speaker healthy,
would you care to elaborate a bit more on that as i do not understand your point?
http://www.ektoplazm.com/free-music/stereofeld-frequenzwechsel "I've always been a believer in musical repetition to draw in the listener and make the music hypnotic. Another thing I believe in is repetition." Alan Parsons
Audiosonic
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Posted : Aug 1, 2011 13:56
Quote:
On 2011-08-01 13:42, faxinadu wrote:
i rather my samples all start at the zero crossing. this way to make a click is not so speaker healthy,
+1
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faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht
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Posted : Aug 1, 2011 14:04
the zero crossing is the point your speakers cross from positive to negative. having a sample offset means the speaker is being told to not start moving from its center, which it physically can not.
BUT
the clicky envelopes you hear on many synths is a result of the envelopes not re-triggering on every note (same goes for oscillator phase). sometimes this sound is desired sometimes not, for drums and snappy hits i personally prefer that at least the finished sample starts and ends on snap and in phase. The Way Back
https://faxinadu.bandcamp.com/album/the-way-back
but i think i will try to wrestle with it a bit more.
