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4000NIS Budget - you decide!
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eliran17
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
51
Posts :
168
Posted : Jul 25, 2004 18:35
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i have 4000 shekels to spend on a new machine
i have many doubts on how should i invest them... generely i need new motherborad,proccesor. memory and soundcard.
so i'm very confuesd and i'm looking for your help...
till now this was my choice:
-Intel P4 2.8Ghz 800Mhz 1Mbt cache - 990NIS
-Asus P4 - 800Mhz (Synced to proccesor)- 480NIS
-512Mbit Micron DDR400 - 540NIS
-Waveterminal 192 x soundcard - 1200NIS
-westerndigital 80GB 7200RPM - 390NIS
ALL those commponentes are estimated at 3510NIS (THIS ARE THE PRICE AT ME CITY)
i also need a power supply,box,videocard.
i need your help of changing things and if you have something to say or to bring to my attention please do it...
  <One learns people through the heart, not the eyes or the intellect> |
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EYB
Noized
Started Topics :
111
Posts :
2849
Posted : Jul 25, 2004 18:48
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Go for AMD FX/64, and double your ram,
and buy a good power supply, like an Enermax.
Check that you get quiet fans on graphic card and for your cpu and tower.
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Input
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
24
Posts :
456
Posted : Jul 26, 2004 11:58
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I'm going with EYB, check out the amd xp3200 / K8
and invest in 1GB ram- also take SATA HD instead of regular UDMA IDE- and one more thing- even though i'm working with Intel P4- if i would but my pc today i was choosing AMD- it's just working better- check out the 64BIT K8 version- very sweet
peace, Space is the place
http://www.megabit.co.il |
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eliran17
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
51
Posts :
168
Posted : Jul 26, 2004 17:25
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i'll do...
so after all you do change my mind thanks for your help so far 
any other suggestions?
<One learns people through the heart, not the eyes or the intellect> |
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Sektor666
Inactive User
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
439
Posted : Jul 27, 2004 13:18
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Buy AMD 64 + 1024mb of dual ddr + SATA HD (Maxtor) and wait to buy sound card ..........
Why do you need "PRO" sound card ? |
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Mike A
Subra
Started Topics :
185
Posts :
3954
Posted : Jul 27, 2004 23:57
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The man only has 4000 nis.. I think everything you proposed is much much higher.
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Sektor666
Inactive User
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
439
Posted : Jul 28, 2004 10:35
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KSP.CO.IL next time think less than check |
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igneous
Igneous Sauria
Started Topics :
22
Posts :
115
Posted : Jul 29, 2004 12:54
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with the money you have you should be able to bye
P4 3 gig hyperthreading (800 FSB)
Hyperthreading motheboard
1 gig ddr400
1 serial ATA hard drive
A midiman audiophile PCI
this configuration, when working with Cubase SX 2 or Nuendo 2, will give about 3 times the performance of a p4 2 gig. More than anything you need to make electronic music. Imagine that I made encepfalophagus just with a P3 1 gigahertz with 256 ram!
Hypertheading processors are like using 2 processors at the same time. The one part of the processor takes care of all windows/system tasks (such as drawing graphics etc) while the other half takes care of all audio processing. the only thing that can delay u after that is the audio card. You need a proper card with ASIO drivers. The audiophile is perfect for a small setup without outboard and synths. It is very fast, with bug-free drivers. Then u need a drive dedicated to Audio. So u can use your old hard drive for windows and get a new drive for audio
prices in europe
3gig P4 -- about 200 euros
motherboard - about 100 euros
hard drive -- about 100 euros
audiophile -- about 150 euros
1 gig 400 ddr -- about 200 euros
that is 750 euro, about 4000 nis
that of course assumes you already have monitor(about 150 euros for 19 inch), case,floppy,keyboard,mouse,cd (about 100-150 euros for all of these)
if soundcards are expensive in israel try www.thomann.de -- web shop out of germany, very cheap and proper service...
ok, hope you find a solution!
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ZilDoggo
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
663
Posted : Jul 29, 2004 16:46
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if i had 4000NIS i would buy a lot of icecream !
hehe,. just kidding.,
anyway,
igneous,
the marketing sheit is just dripping off man.,
here is the real deal:
*NEVER EVER* will you get 3 times the performance with a 3G p4 compared to a 2G.
you will not even get a 50% increase in overall speed.,
rule of thumb is that a >doubling< of frequency means an increase of about 20% or so.,
if you do see such a spectacular increase in speed then there was something horribly horribly wrong with the 2G computer.,
also, hyperthreading is something COMPLETELY different from having 2 processors., !!!!!
At BEST hyperthreading will give you about 10-12% more computing power.,
It's also not true that one 'processor' will take over system stuff while the other does music., THIS IS COMPLETE BULLS&*T!!!.,
a hyperthreaded cpu will >appear< as two cpu's to the operating system.,
this means that the os can run two simultanious threads., but threads are being scheduled as usual and that means that both virtual processors will run all kinds of threads all the time., so there is no division between system threads and program threads., mind you, you can force a thread onto one 'cpu' but it woul propably degrade performance because the os cannot balance the load.,
to understand what hyperthreading is you need to know that all commands that are sent to a cpu are broken down into even smaller commands inside the cpu.,
then these smaller commands are sent to different specialized parts inside the cpu ., this is how a modern intel cpu would work (without hyperthreading)
what happens with multithreading is that the cpu accepts *two* commands simultainously.,
these commands are broken into smaller commands.,
then, if one of these smaller command is using a certain part of the processor another command can use another part.,
the problem is of course that most of the time these commands want to use the same part of the processor and one of them must wait untill the other is finished.,
but sometimes two commands can use different parts of the cpu (because they need to do totaly different things) and they can be done paralel on two different parts of the chip.,
so, in the end, hyperthreading will only >sometimes< behave like two cpu's (speed wise)., but this is only sometimes and the result is an increase in cpu power by about 10%., (depending on what you are doing)
sorry, but i had to get this off my chest
greets.,
aka., |
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igneous
Igneous Sauria
Started Topics :
22
Posts :
115
Posted : Jul 30, 2004 11:05
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what you are saying is completely true. hyperthreading processors though can process 2 commands at the same time. What u say totally works (and doesn't give you more than 10% performance increase) when working with conventional programs such as word processing and games. However when talking about things such as working on audio and with a program such as Nuendo or Cubase 2 that support multiprocessing directly, it gives you at least 3 times the speed. What I am talking about here is practical tests, that I have done. I will tell you like this. When running a tune that I made using my p4 2 gig 400 FSB 1gig ram 333 and used 100% of the resources, some times even going down during playback, with the P4 3 gig hyperthreading 800 FSB and 1 gig DDR 400, takes about a quarted of the power it did before. Hypertheading gives you no real benefit unless running Audio or Video (I can't think about any other software) and of course as you mentioned the software has to support the new instructions, which Nuendo 2 and Cubase 2 do (there is a special option in the Advanced tab in the VST Multitrack window that allows turning this on or off).
I suspect you'd agree that the best thing to get with this money is the configuration I proposed!
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ZilDoggo
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
663
Posted : Jul 30, 2004 13:44
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that's what i told you man, there was something wrong with the 2g system.,
i went from a pIII 700MhZ to a p4 2.8 800 HT.,
speed increased between 2 to 4 times., this looks about right to me with all the fsb speed increase and mem speed increase and stuff.,
so i cant see how you went from 2G to 3 G with a speedincrease of 3 times.,,. THAT WOULD BE A MIRACLE IN PC-LAND!!
unless, again, there was something wrong with the 2G system
even HT optimized software will not run faster than 10%., (this is a means estimate, intel never states the mean value, they jsutstate that the maximum increase in performance could be 30%., but tis is not a sustained value for normal usage., so it's somewhere inbetween 0% and 30% speed increase)
and dont forget: hyperthreading IS NOT THE SAME AS multiprocessing.,
you CANT confuse these two concepts.,
what *might* have increased the speed is the new SSE2 suff.,
but using SSE2 would inctrease speed by 1/8th of the fpu performance of a pentiumIII
so it'a not that spectacular either.,
the whole point is that the ammount of alu's didnt increase that much compared to older cpu's.,
a hyperthreaded cpu will accept two threads at the same time but it cant execute both threads at the same time all the time., both threads must share the resources of just ONE cpu.,., so it CANT PHYSICALLY be faster than 30% in the most optimal cases.,.,
see: http://or1cedar.intel.com/media/training/intro_ht_dt_v1/tutorial/index.htm
here, if you go to "Hyper-Threading Technology Benefits" you will see in the animation what HT realy is.
you first see how dual-processor systems look., two separate cpu's with each cpu having it's own alu's (the internal sub-processors).,
when you klick the button you see that a HT cpu has the alu's of only ONE cpu but still accepts 2 instructions at a time.,
this means that whatever you do, a HT cpu has the internal resourses of only ONE cpu., !!!
seriously, the speed increase you saw was not because of HT.,
if you want to understandd more about this you should read the intel docs., they always provide good technical info about their products.,(not talking about the marketing info) ., you could even learn machine language from their docs if you'd like ., so everything is in there, you just need to read it all
what is INTERESTING is that intell states the a hyperthreaded cpu MIGHT run code faster than a non-hyperthreaded cpu., are you with me?., MIGHT run code faster.,
if you look here: http://developer.intel.com/technology/itj/2002/volume06issue01/art01_hyper/p11_performance.htm
you will see HT enabled performance compared to non-hyperthreaded performance.,
the dark bit on top of the graphs is the increase you get from HT.,
and this info comes from INTEL themselfs.,! .,
so you should see these kinds of things in perspective., HT is not a miracle.,
if you are REALY interested or just hard-core you might want to read stuff from here:
http://developer.intel.com/design/Pentium4/documentation.htm
this is the docs page for the P4. , EVERYTHING is documented., it's just a biatch to read., but if you do you will understand how a cpu works, what HT is and why it could never boost performance as you described.,
greets.,
aka., |
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igneous
Igneous Sauria
Started Topics :
22
Posts :
115
Posted : Jul 31, 2004 10:03
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ok! it is exciting!
I am sure u have a point. The fact is that the nuendo cpu meter shows 1/4 of the processing power it showed on the same tune now, than what it showed before
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DR_RiBoH
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
16
Posts :
51
Posted : Jul 31, 2004 15:45
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I HEARD THAT THE MAC G4 IS THE BEST ,
YOU CAN GET IT WITH ALL THE SOFTWARE |
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ZilDoggo
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
663
Posted : Jul 31, 2004 15:54
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"The fact is that the nuendo cpu meter shows 1/4 of the processing power it showed on the same tune now,"
hehe., well, i belive that.,
but it can be because of a lot of things.,
faster memory, cleaner system, new version of software/drivers, processes running in the background, os type, etc.,
what you could do to see how much HT helps is to disable it in the BIOS.,
then go and see how much the cpu meter increases in your sequencer
greets.,
aka.
btw., a mac is a very nice mucic beast imo.,
if i had the money to buy a G5 i would do so yesterday
with pc's there seems to be a lot more (small) problems which can be very frustrating.,
and you actually need to know more about computers to use and maintain a PC.,
so this might be an important choice.,
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igneous
Igneous Sauria
Started Topics :
22
Posts :
115
Posted : Aug 1, 2004 12:43
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My system is always the same. Full clean windows install (services disabled, all optimized -- swap file, all the little details). Got DDR400 with the new processor (before that was running 333). Soundcard drivers where exactly the same as were the rest of the parts that made up the computer.
As for the macs, I dont agree. I remember when PCs where P3 1gig and I was working on that ok for the time, and then we went on to work on a G4. Had exactly the same amount of problems and crashes. Well at the moment I am fully satisfied with the P4/3 gig HT, so much that I don't think I will need anything for a while (until the programs become so hungry that they will need it).
Of course it takes an amount of organisation to keep everything working fine. Clean hard drive for recording and playing back, bouncing down audio synths when finished with them (it become a lot more stable, sound wise apart from system wise... there are always little bugs or random factors that can change the sound details of a vsti at the time of playing).
To put it like this i use about 20-30 tracks with 4-5 fx plugins on each. Kontakt is always on and plays all the drums bits real time with MIDI, as is the bassline (usualy v-station). All the aditional synth sounds are bounced as soon as finalized, that might be like 64 bars of filter sweeps, when done it is bounced.
Also using about 4-5 busses for send effects (reverbs, delays etc.).
This way I finish a full track using about 1/4 of the CPU available, and have the possibity to add another synth line at any point, from any VSTi, without any problems.
What you really need is what zilDoggo mentioned. A full clean system. If needed I can provide you with some html files on how to fully optimize your system for music.
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