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4/4 and 3/4
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Surrender
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : Dec 29, 2003 22:42
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alright.. i think it has been discussed before, but i still dont get it and i cant find it.
can someone explain to me the main diffrence between 4/4 beat and 3/4 beat?
does it change the mood of the tracks if i use 3/4 or 6/8? how do u use this rythm? i know that some hallucinogen tracks are 3/4 and cpu told me that his track "haight street freak" is 3/4 and its 149 bpm so it wouldve sounded super fast in 4/4 but it doesnt somehow, i suspect from the fact its 3/4...
i dont really get it.
  "On the other hand, you have different fingers."
http://myspace.com/gadimon |
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YAT (vxzp violation)
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Dec 29, 2003 22:45
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4/4 divides every bar to four beats.
3/4 divides every bar to three beats...
so you have in snap of 16 only 3 notes..
like the tempo of walse....
=]
Youth of the Galaxy...
The Time Has Come To Demand Your Freedom!!!
(Doof - Youth of the galaxy, 1996) |
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YAT (vxzp violation)
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Dec 29, 2003 22:45
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i think it gives more repeatative feeling
like
Dark Soho - Depth of emotion
[what a track]
Youth of the Galaxy...
The Time Has Come To Demand Your Freedom!!!
(Doof - Youth of the galaxy, 1996) |
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Surrender
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : Dec 29, 2003 22:46
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YAT (vxzp violation)
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Dec 29, 2003 22:49
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ehm..... no.... not at all....
not in my opinion anyways....
faster , repeatative , more monotonic feeling
instead of : kick-ta ta ta_kick-ta ta ta_kick-ta ta ta
you have : Kick-ta-ta_Kick-ta-ta_Kick-ta-ta
try it! and get the feeling
Youth of the Galaxy...
The Time Has Come To Demand Your Freedom!!!
(Doof - Youth of the galaxy, 1996) |
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Lii
Megalopsy
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Posted : Dec 29, 2003 23:04
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hey
3/4 is really interesting, and i supose that other time measures would be too... but ill limit myself to talking about 3/4 and what i know about it...
You must first of all make a clear distinction between 3/4 and the triplet, which in my language is called "tresillo" and is often referred to in programs such as cubase or reson as the "T" agregate in each time measure, example 1/8T.
The first case, that is 3/4, is merely an accentuation of tempo every 3 counts, where the normal case in psychedelic trance is accentuation every 4 counts (4/4). Anyway this isnt so square in the sense that we dont really accentuate the kicks for example every 4 counts, we make them all be even in volume but the 4/4's real prescence is noticeable in the general structure of the music, such as the unity of melody, effects, whatever.
Now what concerns you really with this topic is the magical "T", the triplet. A triplet is a subdivision of a tempo count in 3 instead of the pairity with even subdivisions:
4/4 (normal)
4 counts with 1/8 bass
Kick null bass null Kick null bass null Kick null bass null Kick null bass null
or 4 counts with 1/16 bass
Kick null bass bass Kick null bass bass Kick null bass bass Kick null bass bass
or 4 counts with triple 1/16 bass (the powerful)
Kick bass bass bass Kick bass bass bass Kick bass bass bass Kick bass bass bass
now with triplet "T"(the mistakely referred to as "3/4") would be,
Kick bass bass Kick bass bass Kick bass bass Kick bass bass
or
Kick null bass Kick null bass Kick null bass Kick null bass (not so effective)
Can you tell the diference? Subdivisions of each count are by 3 instead of four or two, thats the magic of the "T"
If you need a clear example of this, listen to Neuromotor's Fuck the Dat Mafia Trance near the end and behold the power of the T. I think that it makes the music more paused, or chilling or relaxed being the basics of black rhythms or the pilar of reggae music for example...
Well, thats all I know, hope it helps, and please anyone tell me if Im mistaken in anything.
If you need and .rns or a .cub, ill send it to you, no problem |
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Surrender
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
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Posted : Dec 29, 2003 23:08
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thank you all, i think i get it.
and Lii can you send me that in .thc?
"On the other hand, you have different fingers."
http://myspace.com/gadimon |
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Trip-
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : Dec 29, 2003 23:14
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let me explain this simple:
Musicaly speaking, 4/4 means u have 4 beats in a bar. 3/4 means u have 3 beats in a bar. speed is the same for both.
| 2 3 4 | 2 3 4 | 2 3 4 | 2 3 4
| 2 3 | 2 3 | 2 3 | 2 3 | 2 3
As you see, speed is the same, because the numbers are representing each beat (kick in our world). so 3/4, means each bar will have 3 kicks - think about 3 kick melodies.
So you have 4 'kicks' in a bar - from trance beat point of view, 4/4 and 3/4 are part of a smaller bar, which is one kick untill the next one - when it should have been called 4/16 and 3/16. because this way the speed is different, since the bars are smaller between every kick.
I'll represent each kick as '|':
| 2 3 4 | 2 3 4 | 2 3 4 | 2 3 4
| 2 3 | 2 3 | 2 3 | 2 3 | 2 3
the example is the same, but this time - each line has different 'kick' appearance in time.
and here u can either place 4 parts between a kick or 3 parts - which will sound as triplets.
3/4 is considered a Walz rythm. Play a walz melody in your head in order to get what I'm saying here.
Hope this was helpful.
Crackling universes dive into their own neverending crackle...
AgalactiA |
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Lii
Megalopsy
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Posted : Dec 30, 2003 00:54
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thc?? what's that format?
you mean roll it up and send it to you? joojo |
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Surrender
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : Dec 30, 2003 01:07
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Quote:
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On 2003-12-30 00:54, Lii wrote:
thc?? what's that format?
you mean roll it up and send it to you? joojo
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either that, or i heard .dmt format can be teleported straight to nyc. 
"On the other hand, you have different fingers."
http://myspace.com/gadimon |
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Top-down
Inactive User
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119
Posted : Dec 30, 2003 01:34
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Different tythms do give different moods, besides the "speed" they change (6/8 in classic called "hunt").
By the way, what other rythms can we use in trance (it has to be semetric, isn't it) ? |
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Lii
Megalopsy
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Posted : Dec 30, 2003 01:50
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i dont know, why not try?
and surrender, tell me, can i send you a reason file or a cubase file? i dont know what a thc is |
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solipt1c
Soliptic
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Posted : Dec 30, 2003 02:14
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as some others have explained at more length... you dont mean 3/4
i have NEVER heard a 3/4 trance track. ok, granted, i havent heard 0.001% of trance, but still.
i suspect you mean 12/8.
this is still ultimately a bar of 4, its just with each of the four beats subdivided into 3 instead of 2 or 4. it goes :
||: TA-du-du-ta-du-du-ta-du-du-ta-du-du :||
(alternatively for a skippy, swung feel you can tie two of the triplets together)
this, NOT 3/4, is definitely what you hear in the classic hallucinogen / shpongle tracks.
now lets look at how he morphs from 4/4 to 12/8. there are several different ways i've heard this achieved... here is the simplest method.
what he does is clever stuff whereby he starts with:
semiquaver-semiquaver quaver
( eg: _ _ __ , _ _ __ , _ _ __ )
...which is slowly morphed into...
triplet triplet triplet
by gradually pushing the second and third notes of each group rightwards. kinda hard to explain in words - easier in numbers. for example nuendo divides each beat into 120 ticks. the straight one that we started with could be represented as
0 30 60 , 0 30 60 , 0 30 60 , 0 30 60
a triplet one works out as
0 40 80 , 0 40 80 , 0 40 80 , 0 40 80
So you see, the second note of the phrase has to smoothly move from 30 to 40, whilst the second smoothly moves from 60 to 80. i dont know if simon has a magic way of doing it - i think he uses logic, which is a beast at this sort of thing, so he probably does. Nuendo certainly has no magic way, so i've done this by hand before... the first bar is 0 30 60, the second bar is 0 31 61, etc, etc. it takes about 2 hours to get a morph, and then it still sounds crap! because, with a simple linear progression between the two, psychoacoustically it seems to not move for ages, then suddenly jump! instead of being smooth.... i think the real meat of the morph lies in a tiny space in the middle.... so you need to morph them along an exponential curve for the most seamless result.
whatever.... it certainly gave me fresh respect for the big man Mr. P!
as for the mood it imparts - well, surely you can hear that for yourself!
if you want to hear a 12/8 feel track from me, well, my very last psy track is entirely in 12/8 (specifically, the one with ties, to give a hard swung dotted feel). its called "daybreak blues" and you can find it here:
http://www.ampcast.com/music/17539/artist.php
as for the morph.... i once finished a track with the morph in it, but it was kinda shitty, so its not online anymore
http://www.dartrecordings.co.uk/ |
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Anak
Anakoluth
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Posted : Dec 30, 2003 03:07
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zooter
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Dec 30, 2003 05:59
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YAT / Lii ... really good info...thankx...
doesn't mean other people's inputs are bad...just that i understood better from u 2.....respect |
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