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11 pages on how it become shit ,now what would you innovate?
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
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1352
Posted : Jul 6, 2013 23:24
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I agree with all of that.
you see, meeting the public's expectations leads to repetition of formulas imo. no one in it's perfect mind would question the production value of such music, just the content.
I agree with you: well produced tracks don't always translate in good music.
I think it's quite obvious that there's room for novelty even within the same formulas and patterns. I think this scene has been developing a lot and there's a lot of variety. the building blocks are just that: the core elements that make almost any track.
but I'm not talking to any audience here, I'm talking to producers, some of them quite experienced. to some extent Nectario's track is the right kind of answer to this. and, clearly, he doesn't need to drop the tested formulas behind him to delve fully in new sonic adventures. same for each and everyone of us here. what I was stressing here was that there's room for such experiments and that we even should welcome them.
talking about trance and patterns is going back to the "core", the roots of all of this. we know what works because it's tested a milion times. but how often do we think about them and what they mean? changing routines, and the way we work can open new avenues that don't necessarily threaten what's been done before, it just adds new possibilities to the game. and this particular game it's one we're playing together here. the internet just made it more obvious then before. psytrance is collective work. we grow with each other.
I knew that focusing on Bass would bring a lot of mixed feelings with it. Started a thread about that and some have clearly misinterpret it. The tools we have today offer us a big scope of sonic possibilities and to some extent, even though we don't like to admit it, our own expectations and goals deprive us many times from exploring them fully. that happens when we settle for "more of the same" with slightly variations. doesn't mean there isn't fresh new tracks coming out that are good, and surely shouldn't offend anyone. this is just thought provoking stuff here.
doesn't have to turn into a: people who want to change anything because they're unpleased vs people who want it to remain the same for the sake of survival of the genre thing... there's certainly no beige fascism behind my thoughts here to. and certainly not agreeing with Loud's video. not even claiming all popular rigs are bad. I'm happy to go to Boom or Ozora any time and I always have a great time.
but... what's wrong with rethinking "core elements" of our dearest music? |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
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5292
Posted : Jul 6, 2013 23:41
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You're right. But its not easy to break the norm with something that is as driving, for example when using a 16th bassline. Even this track I posted.. I listen to it in a set and its ok and everything, but its hard to come up with something that has the same drive of the 16th bass that is just firing all over the place. Its good for people to generally try to change up the core elements as this is the only way something new and exciting will pop up. But at least people are trying, so its only a matter of time before things start changing towards new and exciting directions.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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jekvan
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
70
Posts :
406
Posted : Jul 7, 2013 01:47
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Very good point guys .
Also to add that experimentation would validate some of the negative stuff that said here- experiment and trial and error will bring initially bad results,and only with sticking up it will shine . So at some point the people who said there is no need to change ,are right in some manner,it will shift away the quality and the vibe.And if not in skilled / not focused enough hands it will go crap very soon.
Also,very good about driving element,one of the reason I fall in love with psy was exactly that.There is no denying that the formula for bass pulsing is not bad at all.Just makes the experimentation all that more challenging and interesting .
Anyway,here is track that utilizes some of the stuff I talked about (polyrythms and odd time sigs,and some harmonic work,thought very basic) .I think it is reasonably good work in making it a tiny more complex and preserving the vibe (been doing all that producing for only 2 years ,so well,pardon for the shitake sound).
https://soundcloud.com/jekvan/jekvan-five-is-the-rythm-of
Nothing new thought,as Ive found when I was breaking my head how to do this track,I've found Shpongle has been doing it way before (his track "monster hit"),at least in odd time signature department.
Anyway,I think there are enough suggestions here to get to work already  .
From all the things I lost,that sandwitch cost me most :)
http://soundcloud.com/jekvan |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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162
Posts :
8087
Posted : Jul 8, 2013 18:25
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Quote:
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On 2013-07-06 16:53, Nectarios wrote:
For sure. I am not against the KbBB pattern. I am all for it actually, the tunes I have done after the one I just posted, have the classic single saw 16th bassline as well. Why I use it? Because even though I have heard it millions of times, I still love it.
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it s like offbeat guitar in reggae..it still work |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
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8087
Posted : Jul 8, 2013 18:29
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about the topic in trance what is maybe irratating to some like msyefl soemtimes is the beat is very in front now
oldschool goa was in a way more similar to rock ect music in the frequencie balance also the feel..lot of tune you can really ear little jitter in the syncros of the gears ect..all part of the charm more organic and closer to real music than robot stuff of these day
we were all after tightest syncro possible..but when listening some tunes with drifting it can sound very nice now almost 20 years later , it have his own charm like on sheyba ganesh i was lisetning.. all tunes off today have robot syncro and it can be irritating.. but today tools offer very flexible way of working on this aspect to humanize the music |
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Djones
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
267
Posts :
1766
Posted : Jul 9, 2013 01:06
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Quote:
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On 2013-07-08 18:25, PoM wrote:
Quote:
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On 2013-07-06 16:53, Nectarios wrote:
For sure. I am not against the KbBB pattern. I am all for it actually, the tunes I have done after the one I just posted, have the classic single saw 16th bassline as well. Why I use it? Because even though I have heard it millions of times, I still love it.
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it s like offbeat guitar in reggae..it still work
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Indeed, or the chord progression in Blues, which is another example of things which do the job just right and need no change. |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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162
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8087
Posted : Jul 9, 2013 12:40
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Quote:
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On 2013-07-08 18:29, PoM wrote:
all tunes off today have robot syncro and it can be irritating.. but today tools offer very flexible way of working on this aspect to humanize the music
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was thinking to round robin. and how stuff is aligned on the grid can change the feel of a tune.
in music made with instrument never 2 notes/hits are totally the same..same with anyhting analog like a 909 ect...
it give organic more real feeling ,new goa i have heard sound like robot stuff and it s big turn off for me..the feel is not there
i think lot of trance fans are closer to music made with intstrument than some modern techno..
lot will go more seeing a good concert and dancing on the beach than going in a club listening some comercial crap.. and today psytrance is more inspired by this commercial stuff than music made with instruments.. so old crowd probably feel let down by how the sound evolved |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
5292
Posted : Jul 9, 2013 16:02
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Quantization is only a small part of why things sounded different back in the day. People where limited to channels and available sounds. So they had to adapt to having a few analog synths and a hardware sampler or two with 20 outputs max....downsampling samples to fit the on the samplers on board RAM, monofying them...etc.
Back then, high pass filters on lots hardware mixers where around 75hz, so lots of things had strong low mid/upper bass content and in some ways became part of the bassline. So they wrote music and programmed synths accordingly. Which led to a whole different vibe.."unclean", "muddy" mixes by today's standards, but very interesting music non the less.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Jul 9, 2013 16:21
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Some of those characteristics can be emulated with software... I used to do all my drums in audio tracks, lately I've been using groove machines and stuff like that more. Some of these old machines had the ability for, say, silencing the closed hat whenever the open hat played - that also adds up to the groove and "somewhat natural vibe"...
Using sample delay or adjusting stuff a few "tics" can sometimes work wonders, of course... the "humanizing" features in midi, in most daws, sometimes doesn't cut it for EDM (at least for me), I'd rather fake the irregularities and sync drifts myself.
Roland's had a big impact on how pioneer Electronic Music sounded - and even how it was made. The main difference, I think, besides the analogue sources and all of that (we take for granted) is mainly that people had to become very familiar with an interface and make the most out of it, I guess. Many times it's been said here (everywhere) that fewer options sometimes leads to more creativity.
Luckly there's even the Korg mini machines for getting hands on analogue action again - that even drifts out of sync and everything - for those after the classic vibe. And it's fairly cheap to.
Do you guys think this second coming of analogue will have a big impact on psytrance and Electronic Music in general? |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
5292
Posted : Jul 9, 2013 16:23
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It has had a big impact on me. Most of my sounds are from my new analogs.
James Holden's new tunes are full of analog modular sounds.
He is massive in the techno scene.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
8087
Posted : Jul 9, 2013 18:06
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Quote:
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On 2013-07-09 16:21, frisbeehead wrote:
Do you guys think this second coming of analogue will have a big impact on psytrance and Electronic Music in general?
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no not much... about the music if workflow is similar the output will be more or less similar i think.. what ever the tools used.
the sound can only be better though...
maybe i m wrong..synth inspire use to create new sounds ect...but the workflow ,the way to create the music matter more i think |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
5292
Posted : Jul 9, 2013 18:38
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Quote:
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On 2013-07-09 18:06, PoM wrote:
Quote:
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On 2013-07-09 16:21, frisbeehead wrote:
Do you guys think this second coming of analogue will have a big impact on psytrance and Electronic Music in general?
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no not much... about the music if workflow is similar the output will be more or less similar i think.. what ever the tools used.
the sound can only be better though...
maybe i m wrong..synth inspire use to create new sounds ect...but the workflow ,the way to create the music matter more i think
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It has changed my work flow as well. Having said that Maschine has changed my work flow a substantial bit and it ain't analog.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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cyclone
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
46
Posts :
101
Posted : Jul 10, 2013 11:36
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Having said that Maschine has changed my work flow a substantial bit and it ain't analog.
[/quote]
in what way it changed your workflow?how do u use it in studio and how in live?i ve never seen any video about mashine in psytrance scene.. |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
5292
Posted : Jul 10, 2013 11:51
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In the studio I make beats and loop patterns but playing the pads, which is a lot nicer than inputting notes on the MIDI editor.
Also there is Note Repeat and the pads have a brilliant aftertouch which help me make even nicer patterns.
Note repeat is used a lot in live sets, especially 32nds as it makes some great drones from any old sample.
When playing live I have loops running along with the track, whilst them loops are running I can also play pads on top, run the Maschine output into separate outputs of my sound card and then into a different channel on the DJ mixer to cue, build a loop and mix it in sync, the same way I would have two CDJs where one plays a full mix and the other one is a selection of loops I have built in the studio, or build on the fly on stage.
I can have 8 Groups on things running at the same time to switch from, by muting/unmuting groups. So its like an 8 track sequencer. I wish I had more than 8 groups by these will have to do.
And then there are the FX Maschine has. The Delay and Grain effects are great, you can select a whole group, or sample to send to an effect.
On top of that by hitting "Shift+Control" maschine switches to a MIDI controller to control Logic's native synths that I have open. Its very immediate to use + the controller is slim, light and built like a tank. Flashing pads are nice when playing at night on a stage with very low light.
And the included sample library, is absolutely brilliant.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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robbery
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
2
Posted : Jul 23, 2013 02:20
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Really interesting thread,
My view is that psychedelic trance is a defined genre, like a sonnet or a haiku, the 12 bar blues song, a novel or a sitcom. All of these genres are defined by the audience and all content creators are constrained in their format by the audience. sonnet, haiku -> the form is strictly defined and not negotiable. Novels and sitcoms have had changing audiences(newspaper syndication to books and television to internet) so the format evolves.
I think that the music has to be trance inducing(not necessarily quantized) and the repetitive kick is essential. I also think a repetitive bass is essential and the music needs to be >130bpm at some point. I also think that this isn't bedroom music, it is meant to drive people into trance in a group setting - so infinitely long airy fairy breaks with too many voice samples are also out.
Places I think producers could innovate? become dissatisfied with the titles producer/dj and become composer/musician. The delivery format (long parties lasting hours/days or long listening sessions at work coding  ) lends itself to longer/more intricate and developed compositions with multiple movements etc. At the moment I listen to tracks and they are usually 6,7,8 minutes or an hour mix of a bunch of tracks, where are the composers with 24 minute psytrance tracks - where is my tubular bells? |
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