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0 dB Kick, pros and cons.
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ThiagoNAKA
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Posted : Feb 3, 2009 20:24
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These article shows why is not recomended to lower the Master Fader. It can mask an input clip(althought I guess many DAWs has input trim).
I try to stay away from clipping. If necessary I use a limiter. A nice tip for checking is to use both "pre fader/post fader" meter options. If u see a lot of 0dB channel(like the kick) at pre fader, and u use inserts, u are probably clipping the audio at any stage(eq, compressor, dist). But the fact that u lowered the channel volume, masks this. Some plugs show this, but many donīt.
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The Andychrist
The Andychrist
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Posted : Feb 3, 2009 20:41
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The Andychrist
The Andychrist
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Posted : Feb 3, 2009 22:27
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~d2~
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Posted : Feb 4, 2009 10:18
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It really cements it in my head that paper....and also the bit about overs on mp3 are very interesting. Think how much cushion you would need to leave for myspace!!!
Do you own a sound pressure level meter Andychrist? |
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PoM
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Posted : Feb 4, 2009 14:36
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i think we mix to much with our eyes,what if it s cliping but your ears tell you it sound good? cliping is not necessary a bad thing ,i m sure we all use cliper/distortion,rate and bit reducer ... ,all these plugs shouldn t be used then,now i really don t think that way , if i add + 24 db in the red on the input fader of a comp and if i like how it sound it s all good. |
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~d2~
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Posted : Feb 4, 2009 15:01
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clipping isn't really the same as over drive or distortion. If you calibrate your monitors you won't need to look at the meters, peak RMS or VU. 
Clipping doesn't sound nice to my ears, monitoring conditions can influence this.
But what you might not be considering is how it will sound after its gone through a DAC in a CD player or iPod. Or what mp3 conversion is going to do with a hot signal.
I really do worry when people tell me they like the sound of clipping....sorry PoM.
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PoM
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Posted : Feb 4, 2009 17:08
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after it s gone thought a dac is not a problem if the rendered file don t go over 0db (some meters show intersample peaks like the rme digicheck or ssl have a free one so it s possible to minmise them) , i m more talking about cliping for mixing and mastering purpose ,cliping is used and abused in all sort of musics (clipping high end converters for example ).
also starting with the kick at 0 db mean nothing if at the end the master fader is turned down |
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~d2~
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Posted : Feb 4, 2009 17:20
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Quote:
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On 2009-02-04 17:08, PoM wrote:
also starting with the kick at 0 db mean nothing if at the end the master fader is turned down
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Sorry can't agree with that part.
can clip on the internal bus and any plug ins inserted on that track. |
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ThiagoNAKA
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Posted : Feb 4, 2009 17:27
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Quote:
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On 2009-02-04 17:20, ~d2~ wrote:
Quote:
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On 2009-02-04 17:08, PoM wrote:
also starting with the kick at 0 db mean nothing if at the end the master fader is turned down
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Sorry can't agree with that part.
can clip on the internal bus and any plug ins inserted on that track.
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+1
Thatīs exactly the point of the article. And thatīs why Iīve pointed "pre fader" meter option.
If u have a 0 dB Kick, and for example, try to Eq and Compress: normally u will need to pull the channel fader out. BUT, if u follow the "chain", u will realise that the "digital clipping" is still occurring. And the article kind of shows how much these digital artifacts can be heard.
But I do agree that I tend to mix with BOTH: Ears and Eyes.
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~d2~
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Posted : Feb 4, 2009 17:30
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lol....how dare you not agree with me!!!!
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PoM
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Posted : Feb 4, 2009 17:33
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i never used that technic but are you sure plugins are cliping? nevermind if it dont sound good you ll just have to lower the fader and insert plugins after it.. what i mean cliping is not a bad thing when you know what you re doing , d2 you say you dont like cliping but i won t be suprised it have been used in some tracks you love the production.
i juste did the test + 24 db in the red of a eq - 24 on the master, file sound identical to the original |
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~d2~
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Posted : Feb 4, 2009 17:49
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Quote:
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On 2009-02-04 17:33, PoM wrote:
i never used that technic but are you sure plugins are cliping? nevermind if it dont sound good you ll just have to lower the fader and insert plugins after it
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there is no need to go up to 0dBfs in the first place. The dynamic range of 16 bit is quite good. And 24 bit is shit loads!! I track at around -10dBfs. some track at -12dBfs which is still giving you 22bit resolution. If you leave that headroom you don't need to worry about the meters. |
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~d2~
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Posted : Feb 4, 2009 17:50
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Quote:
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On 2009-02-04 17:33, PoM wrote:
d2 you say you dont like cliping but i won t be suprised it have been used in some tracks you love the production
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I agree, very possible. |
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PoM
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Posted : Feb 4, 2009 17:57
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maybe it sound strange to you but the goal of some engineers is to go the loudest with the less distotion ,what ever technics used to archive it . |
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ThiagoNAKA
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Posted : Feb 4, 2009 17:57
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Indeed, if u put the insert after the fader, u can easily see any clip. But, at least on Cubase SX, the workflow is not easy if u want to use only post-fader effects. Thereīre 6 pre and 2 post fader slots. Plus, CUbase Sx 3 doesnīt allow fast insert slots changes.... 
Also, the article mentions the imprecise value of digital meters. Thatīs the ~d2~īs point also: having a track peaking at -0.1 dB, is not really like not having "clipped samples". Even if it sounds good, in theory it should be better achieving nice sound without clipped samples.
And for authorīs theory, all these digital clipping makes the sound worse, or at least full of digital artifacts. And the playback devices are not developing as fast as it could, so weīre actualling playing "full of imprecise digital values tracks" on non appropriated sound systems. Well, thatīs his theory.
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