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0 dB Kick, pros and cons.
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
Posts :
5306
Posted : Dec 26, 2008 12:08
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Quote:
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On 2008-12-26 10:15, makus wrote:
Hey Elad, you are too straightforward. Give a chance to breaking rules =)
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sure , anyone welcome to clip their song.
break the rules , anarchy. woo.
only that it sounds so bad. to me.
and come on , if u listen to my music im sure u know there are no rules what so ever. exept dont clip.
  www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/ |
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makus
Overdream
Started Topics :
82
Posts :
3087
Posted : Dec 26, 2008 12:34
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Partzi Floch
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
126
Posted : Dec 26, 2008 20:45
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Guys (and girls?), please stay on-topic. |
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Spycht
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
194
Posted : Dec 26, 2008 20:57
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Nobody is offtopic yet.
I'm thinking the artist in question brings his kick up to 0 db so that his fader gives a better portrayal of the level it's at. Running your kick that hot and having a well balanced mix just seems impossible to me. |
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
Posts :
3709
Posted : Dec 27, 2008 01:36
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i do believe that this person makes the kicksample at -0dB
just like the discussion about normalizing or gaining the audioclips at maximum amplitude without clipping ofcourse...
if you are uncertain about if its clipping or not when the red lights go on, just export and see if the soundwave got square at -0dB... from what iv heard and noticed is that if you run it too hot it will easy introduce ear fatigue. http://www.sweetwater.com/expert-center/glossary/t--EarFatigue
so it dose not have to mean that the sound is distorting just cause its turns the meters red, some sounds have quick spikes also known as transients, which are very short and fast. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transient_(acoustics)
i think its best to keep some headroom so you can see the dynamic range of your mix. I mean in the mastering or premaster stage you can always boost the shit out of the track.
So keep your samples hot without clipping, In other words, Normalize or gain if you want, if you are not satisfied with the volume then compress and gain.
keep your channel meters under -0dB
a little red light here and there is probably nothing to worry about but its still interesting to know what causes it. usually some sounds strikes at same time and reinforce each other.
if you are out for a clean mix with lots of room then you need to fine mix and check every detail.
just my cents.. no rules just thoughts and ideas..
happy holidays!
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
5292
Posted : Dec 27, 2008 12:28
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Quote:
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On 2008-12-26 10:51, Medea wrote:
i think this well know artist meant that the kick sample can be up to 0dB, but i think the kick track level is much lower. i hope so 
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what he said.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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gutter
Inactive User
Started Topics :
54
Posts :
3018
Posted : Dec 27, 2008 12:50
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yes my thought too , this must be the kicks normalized volume as a sample,, i mix them usually at -12db depends on the sample maybe lower -15 or so cause it is still audible in the mix with bass etc etc..
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
8087
Posted : Dec 27, 2008 13:29
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it s not the kick normalized ,some really mix with the kick at zero db |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
5292
Posted : Dec 27, 2008 13:32
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
Posts :
3709
Posted : Dec 27, 2008 13:55
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well if the kicksample is at -18dB and you mix it at -0dB in your sequncer its not going to be at -0dB
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
8087
Posted : Dec 27, 2008 14:03
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yes but some mix in the red ,some use a mastering chain and start with a kick at zero db also,whatever works , it s just way of working , not secret tip that ll give you a killer production |
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Partzi Floch
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
126
Posted : Dec 27, 2008 14:32
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I've asked someone I know who's sort of an authority in sound, and he said that it's possible to start with the kick in 0dB and then compress it and srart "pushing" other sounds (compressed as well) into that gap that been caused by the first compression. 
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monno
Grapes Of Wrath
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
454
Posted : Dec 27, 2008 15:32
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meter´s in most DAW´s are NOT precise since making them super accurate would involve some serious calculations, which is always an engineering call when designing softs like this so clipping at or near 0db by meters you can be almost sure to have some intersample clips due to the very fast moving nature of some sounds (sharp transients in particular). 0db fullscale is not forgiving and introducing clipping should as a rule of thumb not even be contemplated unless you have a very clear understanding of how the underlying gainstructure works in your sequencer. However there is creative uses of clipping, a kick for example can be made to be more in your face, provided that the person doing it is not fully retarded (But with eq´s and compressors of good quality i dare say that clipping is a primitive way of achieving that goal, there are other tools at ones disposal). Remember distortion as an effect is simply waveform clipping, complex patterns of already twisted sines having their tops squished for that wonderful squarewave shape everybody seems to be insisting your music must have, i do sometimes apply a little distortion if i want that extra edge on say a lead sound, but i do it on a very accurate monitoring system that allows me to tweak it precisely without it going over the top. Applying such things on my rhythm section simply makes my hairs stand on end :S I am too much of a traditionalist plus i use my ears!!! Clipping especially in the final mixdown or worse mastering can have detrimental effects for sure! audible distortion or at the very least almost inaudible distortion in the high frequencies that can easily lead to listening fatigue (since we are talking dancefloor music and not 3 minute tracks for the radio, i´d say that listening fatigue is very much a concern)
If it´s just for the sake of getting it louder then turn it up after it leaves the digital domain, we have volume knobs for that very reason. And dont get me started on loudness which in itself is a much more elusive concept than talking about peak levels on DAW meters. Personally i think that if more people would think in terms of loudness instead of peak we would have much better sounding music on an overall scale, but i realise it´s utopia to hope for as long as the majority of music in this scene is being made in what i would not even consider a studio. How then to have an environment in which to precisely work with sound if most studios consist of a computer with a midikeyboard and some kind of soundcard/ active monitor solution put in too small rooms with little or no acoustic regulation whatsoever.
Flutter echoes,comb filtering and phase cancellations abound. How to trust ones ears in such environments? oh and for a very good example of how not to do it go and have a listen to mettalica´s newest album. That is a prime and very high-budget example of what the use of clipping the wrong way can do to a recording that should have sounded more like a million dollars than the tin can it actually sounds like.
Mastering available here:
http://www.bimmelim-soundlabs.com
http://soundcloud.com/onkeldunkel
http://www.myspace.com/onkeldunkelownz
http://www.parvati-records.com |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
5292
Posted : Dec 27, 2008 15:49
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What monno said. I'll just add Audioslave's LP to Metallica's for an example of multimillion dollar idiots perceiving louder=better.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Dec 27, 2008 17:26
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In a floating point environment like pretty much all modern sequencers the level on the channel faders really doesn't matter, you just have to make sure the master is not clipping if you are recording to fixed point.
So if you start with the kick on 0 dBFS and master on -6 dBFS or the other way around will have no effect whatsoever on the sound in the end.
The possible advantage of starting with the kick on 0 dB would be that you actually would use the full resolution of the faders and meters, but I doubt that is the reason for the recommendation.
Some producers do advocate to ensure that no other sounds is higher in amplitude than the kick...personally I think that makes the kick a bit too dominant and requires that all sounds in the mix have very contained dynamics which results in a boring sound.
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